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  • FIRST POST
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 8th Apr 19, 9:24 PM
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    Mark2spark
    UK CPM No NTD
    • #1
    • 8th Apr 19, 9:24 PM
    UK CPM No NTD 8th Apr 19 at 9:24 PM
    Hi,
    I've read several threads and posts.
    I don't understand how a NTK is sent by these clowns when there has been no NTD?
    I'm investigating a PCN on behalf on A.N. Other.
    I don't have all the details yet, - just the NTK - but seemingly there is an issue where a vehicle has been parked at a no parking forecourt, yet a PCN has been issued, without a NTD. Does the sign on the wall (which I haven't yet seen in any detail) act as a NTD?
    There would appear to be no parking contract offered, so my understanding is that this would be a trespass issue anyway.
    I'm also unclear on the (as stated in POFA) 14 day rule, I can't get my head around the timeline, so if someone could clarify that for me please?
    Vehicle photographed as 'unauthorised parking' on 21/02/19.
    Parking charge *details*: Issued Date; 05/03/19
    Date on letter: 03/04/19
    Letter received 08/04/19 - this is the first letter or notice of any kind to be received (obviously no windscreen ticket).
    Is this timeline compliant?
    Whilst writing I take it that the standard appeal and wait for Gladstones course of action is going to be what has to happen next?
    Many thanks.
Page 2
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 19, 9:25 AM
    • 38,619 Posts
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    Quentin
    Follow the advice in #18!!
    • rachity
    • By rachity 15th Apr 19, 9:39 AM
    • 87 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    rachity
    Imho, the sign is 'forbidding', therefore not a contract.
    It's a 'trespassers will be persecuted' penalty dressed up to look like a contract. (& breach of same.)
    Last edited by rachity; 15-04-2019 at 9:42 AM.
    CAVEAT LECTOR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Apr 19, 9:56 AM
    • 23,009 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    How could it turn nasty for me?
    Originally posted by Mark2spark
    The PPC will turn their attention to you and make the assumption you were the driver. They then pursue you through the court, causing you considerable work for months, and should you lose (there are no guarantees that you would win), there will be a bill coming your way.

    You cannot represent someone else in court if they are not there in person - you are a ‘stranger’ to the case. As the RK is known to you you can do all the work involved in this on their behalf, but must go out under their name. But if (when) it gets to court, they must be in attendance, you can’t shield them from that.

    UKCPM are the most litigious parking operator in the country and will do everything to gain their pound of flesh. They don’t much care who they go after.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 15-04-2019 at 9:59 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 10:23 AM
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    • 774 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    Follow the advice in #18!!
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Eventually, that will be the case. Or they will manage to contact RK having traced them through a credit agency. But in the meantime, if I could get myself versed up on exactly what we are dealing with here, it would be good.

    Whilst the newbies thread is exceptionally informative, it is mostly about parking in car parks and the associated breaches.
    Information regarding No Parking/Authorised vehicles only/valid permit to be displayed, is a little harder to weed out, and involves a different course of action, should it be a trespass situation.
    Or so it seems. I'm still reading up on it.
    Wish there was a more dedicated section on this scenario. Maybe there is and I haven't found it yet?
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 10:29 AM
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    Mark2spark
    As the RK is known to you you can do all the work involved in this on their behalf, but must go out under their name. But if (when) it gets to court, they must be in attendance, you canít shield them from that.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thanks for that. I'm just trying to gain knowledge of what this 'work' is. Seemingly it's a different course of action when it's a Private Property/No Parking etc situation (i.e. no contract being offered).
    Although the sign insinuates that a contract is effectively offered if you don't comply with the no parking terms?
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 10:31 AM
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    • 774 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    Imho, the sign is 'forbidding', therefore not a contract.
    It's a 'trespassers will be persecuted' penalty dressed up to look like a contract. (& breach of same.)
    Originally posted by rachity
    Thank you. My thoughts entirely. I don't suppose you know of a thread (link please) of a similar situation, and the point by point course of action taken? Thanks if so.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 10:45 AM
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    Mark2spark
    Forgive, but some of the information I'm taking on board from the newbies thread, is confusing.
    In the earlier part of the newbies thread, it states, "If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket."
    There was no windscreen ticket.
    The letter that arrived 8th April 19 (dated 3rd April 19) was the first communication of any sort.
    The letter states that the PCN was issued 5th March 19.
    The date of parking was 21st February 19.

    None of the above complies with this 14 day rule?
    What is the suggestion of dealing with this late arrival lapse?

    Thanks.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 10:59 AM
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    Mark2spark
    Can you log in and view more photos, as both of those are the back of the car?!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have logged in, and viewed the photos available.
    There are 6 photos, which are (3 of each) identical photos as shown on the PCN.
    All show the rear of the car.
    No photos of the windscreen/dashboard where the 'Parking Sign' asks that the permit is displayed within.
    I.E. there is no photographic evidence to show that a authorised user permit wasn't on display.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 19, 11:05 AM
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    Quentin
    Forget the 14 day rule

    Please follow the advice in #18

    It's important that the PPC gets the correct address for the keeper - otherwise they can end up with a default ccj against them without knowing anything about it

    The keeper should await getting this through the post to his address.

    You can advise about the futility of any appeals to IAS (assuming you have read up on this)

    The PPC has 6 years to start legal proceedings, and in the meantime you can advise the keeper how to deal with the debt collection letters to expect
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 15th Apr 19, 11:38 AM
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    Mark2spark
    Forget the 14 day rule

    Please follow the advice in #18

    It's important that the PPC gets the correct address for the keeper - otherwise they can end up with a default ccj against them without knowing anything about it

    The keeper should await getting this through the post to his address.
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Will do, thank you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Apr 19, 5:04 PM
    • 70,218 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Dunno...this is a toughie on how to play it.

    If the rk has mental health issues or is vulnerable, and the post is all coming to your house, maybe it's better to keep your address as the address for service throughout.

    Only you can decide that - but the rk can use your address for service.

    By this they are suggesting that a PCN was issued on 5th March:
    Vehicle photographed as 'unauthorised parking' on 21/02/19.
    Parking charge *details*: Issued Date; 05/03/19
    Date on letter: 03/04/19
    So to flush that out, send a SAR as the rk, using YOUR email addy, and ask for all evidence of the dashboard that day, all photos taken, and all letters they say were posted. Attach as proof of who *you* (the rk) is, a copy of the V5C and the PCN (April) letter.

    I'd also be tempted to appeal as rk, to UKCPM now, and state that:

    - no PCN was received, and

    - the photos appear to omit the dashboard

    (and because of that, this one might be worth taking to the IAS, as UKCPM will not be able to make a prima facie case of 'no permit displayed').
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 16th Apr 19, 7:42 AM
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    Mark2spark
    Thank you for your considered response Coupon-Mad.
    I have dropped UK-CPM a line in snail mail absolving myself from connection with the vehicle (as per above advice).
    I do not feel that this would pre-empt further contact from the RK to UK-CPM, requesting use of this address for service, as indeed the RK is currently in the final throes of moving address (again) anyway, - the timeline for this is dependent on solicitors so could be up to 6 weeks away.
    Does anyone have any observations, that following a SAR being responded to (by UK-CPM) that further photo's actually appear that are NOT on the cpm appeals web page?
    SAR to follow forthwith anyway.
    I take it that the appeal is to be done without waiting for the SAR info to come back?

    Indeed, the property where the parking issue has arose from, is a NHS subsidiary building, where mental health counselling appointments are held. Seemingly a mental health 'blackout' occurred after an appointment was held, thus resulting in the vehicle remaining in situ out of hours. Just FYI.

    I'm on the case anyway. No dashboard pictures = no evidence of non display of permit, at the fundamental level of breach occurring, surely.

    Thank you again.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Apr 19, 7:50 AM
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    Umkomaas
    Indeed, the property where the parking issue has arose from, is a NHS subsidiary building, where mental health counselling appointments are held. Seemingly a mental health 'blackout' occurred after an appointment was held, thus resulting in the vehicle remaining in situ out of hours. Just FYI.
    Has the counselling centre been asked to intervene on behalf one of their clients? If the condition is of a long term duration the protections available under the Equality Act 2010 probably apply - reasonable adjustments, which could include additional parking time needed as a result of the condition.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 16th Apr 19, 7:58 AM
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    • 774 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    Has the counselling centre been asked to intervene on behalf one of their clients?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    No, not yet. It is another avenue to explore. The PCN has only appeared a few days ago and the RK is still unaware of it's existence.
    I was leaving that one on the back burner anyway as it's hard enough just getting a doctors appointment!! Without thinking that getting through several layers of NHS managers to resolve a parking issue would be simple.

    (edit add) It's not a centre where you can phone directly and speak to someone. Appointments are held there that are booked through a more central NHS location.
    Last edited by Mark2spark; 16-04-2019 at 8:00 AM. Reason: added a bit more
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 16th Apr 19, 8:01 AM
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    Mark2spark
    I'm late for work now so will be checking back later now.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Apr 19, 8:04 AM
    • 23,009 Posts
    • 36,544 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    A landowner cancellation is the most potent and should be the first line of attack - it can be potentially done and dusted within a few hours/days.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mark2spark
    • By Mark2spark 16th Apr 19, 8:09 AM
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    • 774 Thanks
    Mark2spark
    I haven't explored it fully but seemingly the NHS isn't the landowner, they rent offices there.
    Could be a can of worms and there might be a simpler route, i.e. insufficient evidence anyway.
    All of these things are dependant on how much time one can devote to the cause. There's days of reading just through the newbies threads, don't want to spend further time on what might turn into a dead end/frustrating lack of response from Gov't type dept's.
    It's probably cheaper to pay it, sorry to say
    But will look into it anyway.
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