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    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 8th Apr 19, 3:43 PM
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    Dilbert999
    When a charity named in a will has been removed from charity database
    • #1
    • 8th Apr 19, 3:43 PM
    When a charity named in a will has been removed from charity database 8th Apr 19 at 3:43 PM
    In their will, my relative left a specific sum of money to the local village hall management committee. The exact wording is "I give the following pecuniary legacy £xxxx to THE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE, xxx Village Hall, for its general purposes."

    No charity number was listed but I did manage to locate it on the charity database, where the Village Hall status is shown as "This charity has been removed from the Register."

    I have located a "Community Association Limited" in the same village, which has a different charity number but seems to fulfil a similar function.

    Should I give the money to this charity instead, as the successor charity?
    Not sure if it is left to my discretion or whether there is a formal approval process for this.

    Thanks for any guidance.
Page 1
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 8th Apr 19, 4:28 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 19, 4:28 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 19, 4:28 PM
    Is there a management committee for the village hall?
    • Apodemus
    • By Apodemus 8th Apr 19, 8:06 PM
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    Apodemus
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:06 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:06 PM
    In my experience it would be quite unusual for a village hall to be registered as a charity. Most would be an unincorporated association run by a management committee. I would think that if you are acting as executor you need to be very certain whether the management committee for the hall still exists, before even thinking about transferring the legacy to a different organisation.
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
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    Dilbert999
    • #4
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Apr 19, 8:42 PM
    Thanks for your replies.


    I've found out just now that the original Village Hall is now a derelict building, and the charity database entry for it says "This charity was registered on 20 Jan 1964, It was removed from the register on 17 Jun 2010. Reason for removal: Funds transferred (gi)." It does appear to have been registered as an charity, as if I search on the charity number it comes up with "xxxx Village Hall", with the aim of having community events etc.


    I have no idea who used to be on its Management committee - but I think it might be an idea for me to try & find someone, to discover where its funds were transferred to.


    There is "xxxx Village Community Association Limited" listed on the charity database, which has a different charity number from the original Village Hall. This Association aims to " to generate funds to build a new community facility".
    And there is also a "xxxx Village Community Hall" built in 2015 (also called the "Village Hall"). Its web site says "The Hall is owned by a local community charity and managed through its Village Hall Management Committee".
    So these two appear to be linked, and may actually be a replacement for the original Village Hall and the original Management Committee. I think I'll call the accountant on the Management committee for this new Hall and see if I can discover if they are directly linked to the original Village Hall. Hopefully that will be enough.
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 9th Apr 19, 2:22 AM
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    Dilbert999
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 19, 2:22 AM
    All sorted....I think
    • #5
    • 9th Apr 19, 2:22 AM
    I looked up "xxxx Village Community Association Limited" in the beta.companies database, and for 2011, there is a Directors Report which mentions how 2 charities were merged in 2010 - the "xxxx Village Hall" and the "xxxx Village Community Association Limited" - as a result of a public meeting in 2009 - and the "xxxx Village Hall" ceased to be a charity in its own right in 2010.

    That's the direct link I was looking for. So the pecuniary bequest for the "xxxx Village Hall" looks like it can be given to the "xxxx Village Community Association Limited".

    Thank you for your replies, which made me dig a bit deeper.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 9th Apr 19, 7:22 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 19, 7:22 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Apr 19, 7:22 AM
    Make sure the residual beneficiaries agree
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 9th Apr 19, 7:48 AM
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    Dilbert999
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 19, 7:48 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Apr 19, 7:48 AM
    Thanks for that advice. I have got the other executor's OK on this, but will now check with the residual beneficiaries.
    If the residual beneficiaries disagree, is that the end of the matter....and the money goes into the residual pot?
    Or can the potential replacement charity (which I've not contacted yet) challenge this & claim the money?
    Thanks for any advice on this.
    Ideally I'm looking to carry out my relative's wishes - just want to be sure the money is going to the right place.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 9th Apr 19, 8:01 AM
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    Keep pedalling
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 19, 8:01 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Apr 19, 8:01 AM
    Thanks for that advice. I have got the other executor's OK on this, but will now check with the residual beneficiaries.
    If the residual beneficiaries disagree, is that the end of the matter....and the money goes into the residual pot?
    Or can the potential replacement charity (which I've not contacted yet) challenge this & claim the money?
    Thanks for any advice on this.
    Ideally I'm looking to carry out my relative's wishes - just want to be sure the money is going to the right place.
    Originally posted by Dilbert999
    If they disagree then I would suggest that you would need to take legal advice, although if the bequest is a small one that might cost the residual beneficiaries more than simply giving the bequest to the hall.
    • konark
    • By konark 10th Apr 19, 11:42 PM
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    konark
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 19, 11:42 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 19, 11:42 PM
    What's it got to do with the residual beneficiaries, they have no say in whether you should honour specific bequests. If its in the will then pay it, even if the charity has changed its name or merged, that's what the testator wanted.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 11th Apr 19, 6:17 AM
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    getmore4less
    Potentially save a load of hassle to check residuals are happy with the conclusion.
    • Dox
    • By Dox 11th Apr 19, 10:04 PM
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    Dox
    Potentially save a load of hassle to check residuals are happy with the conclusion.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Or stir up a hornet's nest....
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Apr 19, 11:01 PM
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    unholyangel
    What's it got to do with the residual beneficiaries, they have no say in whether you should honour specific bequests. If its in the will then pay it, even if the charity has changed its name or merged, that's what the testator wanted.
    Originally posted by konark
    AIUI, if they no longer exist then the bequest (doesn't matter if its specific or not) would fail. There was a review being done I believe so the position may have changed but as it was, charities used to keep shell companies alive to receive legacies else they would fail.

    If the bequest fails then you can't then pass on the funds from that bequest to what is essentially a completely different beneficiary (issue excepted). It should be distributed in accordance with the valid bequests.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 15th Apr 19, 9:10 AM
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    Dilbert999
    Thank you
    Thanks as always for your help everyone. You've been a great help. The current summary is that:
    (1) the original charity has been merged with this new charity "there is a Directors Report which mentions how 2 charities were merged in 2010 - the "xxxx Village Hall" and the "xxxx Village Community Association Limited" - as a result of a public meeting in 2009 - and the "xxxx Village Hall" ceased to be a charity in its own right in 2010. "
    (2) all residual beneficiaries are in agreement to pay out the bequest to the "xxx Village Community Association Limited" on the basis that our relative would have used the new Community Village hall, in the same way they used old Village hall.

    Unholyangel, thanks for your comment as follows. Given the above, I think I'm OK to pay out to the merged charity (ie it is not a completely different beneficiary). I am not sure what "issue excepted" means. Will look it up.
    If the bequest fails then you can't then pass on the funds from that bequest to what is essentially a completely different beneficiary (issue excepted). It should be distributed in accordance with the valid bequests.

    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Apr 19, 1:01 PM
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    getmore4less
    I am not sure what "issue excepted" means. Will look it up.
    Originally posted by Dilbert999

    "issue" is the legal term for direct descendants.

    Unless there are specific terms in a will to the contrary "section 33" rules comes into play.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 15th Apr 19, 1:49 PM
    • 7,223 Posts
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    TBagpuss
    AIUI, if they no longer exist then the bequest (doesn't matter if its specific or not) would fail. There was a review being done I believe so the position may have changed but as it was, charities used to keep shell companies alive to receive legacies else they would fail.

    If the bequest fails then you can't then pass on the funds from that bequest to what is essentially a completely different beneficiary (issue excepted). It should be distributed in accordance with the valid bequests.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    It's true that if the gift fails you can't, as executor, simply chose to give it to someone else. However, if the orgnaisation to whom the gift was made has simply changed it's name or merged or been taken over by another organisation then the gift may not have failed.

    The Charity Comission guidelines mention
    "The category of mis-described charities includes charities that have changed in some respect, such as name, address and constitution. If the will indicates that the testator/testatrix intended to benefit the purposes of the charity, rather than the organisation only, then where a successor charity exists to carry out those same purposes the legacy can be paid to that charity"

    It sounds as though that is what happend here, and that OP is doing what the Charity Cmission and the Courts would dio - try to work out what the testator wanted, and so that!
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 16th Apr 19, 6:44 AM
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    unholyangel
    It's true that if the gift fails you can't, as executor, simply chose to give it to someone else. However, if the orgnaisation to whom the gift was made has simply changed it's name or merged or been taken over by another organisation then the gift may not have failed.

    The Charity Comission guidelines mention
    "The category of mis-described charities includes charities that have changed in some respect, such as name, address and constitution. If the will indicates that the testator/testatrix intended to benefit the purposes of the charity, rather than the organisation only, then where a successor charity exists to carry out those same purposes the legacy can be paid to that charity"

    It sounds as though that is what happend here, and that OP is doing what the Charity Cmission and the Courts would dio - try to work out what the testator wanted, and so that!
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    I was only responding to konark to explain why it may require the permission of the residual beneficiaries rather than describing what should happen in this particular case.

    I would point out the above would be unlikely to apply though, given the wording of the will makes no indication of the gift being intended for specific charitable purposes. Quite the opposite imo, its making a gift to the specific organisation for the organisation to use however they wish.

    However if the beneficiaries agree then all of the above becomes moot anyway.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 16th Apr 19, 8:04 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    I was only responding to konark to explain why it may require the permission of the residual beneficiaries rather than describing what should happen in this particular case.

    I would point out the above would be unlikely to apply though, given the wording of the will makes no indication of the gift being intended for specific charitable purposes. Quite the opposite imo, its making a gift to the specific organisation for the organisation to use however they wish.

    However if the beneficiaries agree then all of the above becomes moot anyway.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    All this talk I of no consequence. The gift failed and falls back into the estate. End of story.
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 16th Apr 19, 4:08 PM
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    Dilbert999
    Thanks again for your replies.
    (1) I am trying to find out if the original Village Hall charity kept a shell company alive to receive legacies (this was mentioned in one of the replies, so thanks for this pointer.
    (2) All residual beneficiaries are fine to pay out to the merged charity as they feel the relative would have wanted this & would have used/enjoyed the new Village Hall charity in the same way as they did the old one.
    (3) I read this on the Charity Commission web site for "D2 A charity that ceases to exist between making the will and the date of death" Case 3 -The court has determined that, where a gift can be construed as a gift for the general purposes of the charity which no longer exists and identical purposes are being carried out by another charity, the gift will not lapse and a legacy can be paid to that charity for those purposes."
    (4)the wording in the relative's will was "for its general purposes", plus the merged charity has similar objectives to the original charity i.e.. provision of facilities for education, recreation etc for the village and neighbourhood.
    Based on the above, it looks like I can pay out to the merged charity. I really don't want to seek legal advice as it's not a huge amount, no one's in dispute with me and it would be a shame if some of it went on fees.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Apr 19, 5:37 PM
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    getmore4less
    Did the will mention any charity
    Last edited by getmore4less; 16-04-2019 at 8:00 PM.
    • Dilbert999
    • By Dilbert999 16th Apr 19, 7:28 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Dilbert999
    In their will, my relative left a specific sum of money to the local Village Hall management committee. The exact wording is "I give the following pecuniary legacy £xxxx to THE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE, xxx Village Hall, for its general purposes."
    No charity number was listed in the will. But xxx Village Hall & its charity number *is* listed on the charity database, where its status is shown as "This charity has been removed from the Register."
    It was removed from the Register when it merged with another charity in 2010: the xxxx Village Community Association Limited- as a result of a public meeting in 2009 - and the xxx Village Hall ceased to be a charity in its own right in 2010.
    This merged charity xxx Village Community Association Limited appears to have the same function and objectives as the original xxx Village Hall charity.
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