Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 29th Mar 19, 4:39 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Civil enforcement ltd county court claim form
    • #1
    • 29th Mar 19, 4:39 PM
    Civil enforcement ltd county court claim form 29th Mar 19 at 4:39 PM
    Hi everyone.

    I have been sent via post a claim form for an unpaid and ignored parking ticket. I parked in a car park at local golf course. I still have evidence of this as i paid online for the round of golf. The reg input machine was behind the bar so it was not customers responsibilty to input their reg but a member of staff. Sometimes i have gone there and they have asked me to write my reg on a paper list which i assume they input later when their less busy.

    Now the input machine has been moved so customers have to input their own reg. I assume thats because im not the only one to have been sent a pcn.

    Anyway do you think these points are a strong defence is the question im asking?

    Any advice much appreciated.
Page 2
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Apr 19, 9:05 PM
    • 14,335 Posts
    • 16,318 Thanks
    KeithP
    Have you read Bargepole's 'what happens when' post linked from post #2 in the NEWBIES thread?
    .
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 2nd Apr 19, 9:13 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    I'll revisit it to refresh my memory. I just find it astonishing that when the ticket is cancelled thats not the end of it right there. Sooner these PPC scammers get shut down the better.

    Cheers for the signposting
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 3rd Apr 19, 11:24 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Hi this is the first attempt at my defence. Maybe a bit detailed but that is the story of what happened. My main defence points are the ticket was wrongly issued for one and two that i was in no way at fault for that happening. Thats why I've explained everything as it happened. I couldn't find a defence that matched my particular set of circumstances to base mine on so based mine on Bargepoles concise defence.

    I wasnt sure about the additional costs so just put ?? until one of you kind people could advise me. the claim form states amount claimed, court fee & legal rep costs. Also now it has got to this stage of proceedings the original 100 they were asking for has nearly doubled so I'm a bit confused which sum to enter. Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated.

    One last question, is point 4 relevant to my case? I think it does as the golf club has asked for the PCN to be cancelled but I'm not completely sure.



    In The County Court
    Claim No: XXXXXXX
    Between
    Civil Enforcement Ltd (Claimant)

    -and-

    XXXXXXX (Defendant)

    ____________
    DEFENCE
    ____________

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts of the matter are that the Defendant is a regular customer of XXXXXX golf club and has parked in their car park on many occasions over the past 15 years. On the day in question the defendant noticed new parking signs had been placed on lamp posts around the car park. The text on these signs and the height they were placed at made them impossible to read from a passing vehicle. the defendant reported to the club house as usual and asked the staff of the golf club what he needed to do in regards to the new parking system. The defendant was informed by the staff member that his vehicle registration number had to be entered into the touchscreen located on the wall behind the bar. the defendant was then instructed to write his vehicle registration on a piece of paper and told that a member of staff would enter it into the touchscreen when they were less busy. The defendant complied with this request then went to start his round of golf. After receiving a parking ticket from the claimant the defendant replied to the claimant providing evidence of his online booking at the golf club for the day and time of the alleged offence, showing that the defendant was a paying customer and was entitled to park there. The claimant insisted that the defendant was still liable to pay. The golf course itself has e mailed the claimant to have the parking ticket cancelled and to admit full responsibility for the defendants vehicle registration not being entered correctly on the day in question.

    3. Accordingly, it is denied that the Defendant breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    4. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge, unless specifically authorised by the principal. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name, and that they have no right to bring any action regarding this claim.

    5. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred ?? costs to pursue an alleged 100 debt. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in Schedule 4, Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case 100.

    6. In summary, the Claimant's particulars disclose no legal basis for the sum claimed, and the Court is invited to dismiss the claim in its entirety.

    Statement of Truth:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 19, 12:47 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    How about this?

    Remember that this is just the defence stage and your evidence email DOES NOT do with it, that comes later at WS stage (see NEWBIES thread):

    In The County Court
    Claim No: XXXXXXX
    Between
    Civil Enforcement Ltd (Claimant)

    -and-

    XXXXXXX (Defendant)

    ____________

    DEFENCE
    ____________
    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts of the matter are that the Defendant is a regular customer of XXXXXX golf club and has parked in their car park on many occasions over the past 15 years. On the day in question the Defendant noticed new parking signs had been placed on lamp posts around the car park. The text on these signs and the height they were placed at made them impossible to read from a passing vehicle, and the small print could not be discerned even when standing near a sign.

    2.1. The Defendant reported to the club house as usual and asked the staff of the golf club what he needed to do in regards to the new parking system. The Defendant was informed by the staff member that his vehicle registration number had to be entered into the touchscreen located on the wall behind the bar. The Defendant was then instructed to write his vehicle registration on a piece of paper and told that a member of staff would enter it into the touchscreen when they were less busy. The Defendant complied with this request then went to start his round of golf.

    3. After receiving a parking ticket from the Claimant, the Defendant replied to the Claimant, providing evidence of his online booking at the golf club for the day and time of the alleged offence, showing that the Defendant was a paying customer and was entitled to park there. The Claimant insisted that the defendant was still liable to pay.

    4. The golf course itself has emailed the Claimant to have the parking ticket cancelled, and the golf club has admitted full responsibility for the Defendant's vehicle registration not being entered correctly on the day in question. The Defendant was copied into that email and will produce it in evidence.

    5. Accordingly, it is denied that the Defendant breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    6. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf.

    7. Even if it is proven that the Claimant has the necessary authority, in general, then it cannot be claimed that there is a 'commercial justification' for issuing parking charge notices to golf club patrons, fully distinguishing this case from Parking Eye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 ('the Beavis case'). Not only were the signs unclear, but the golf club owner has stated in writing that he does not support the ticketing of the Defendant. The golf club - being the landowner/leaseholder in possession - does not support the conduct of this out of control contractor, and the owner remarked that he is livid about the claims and harassment against club members.

    8. Further, there was no 'relevant contract or obligation' that was breached by any action of the Defendant, and the signage also failed the test for clarity and prominence set by the Beavis case. The penalty represents neither a necessary deterrent, nor an understandable ingredient of a scheme serving legitimate interests. Thus, the charge is unrecoverable, and indeed unconscionable, given the facts of this case and the Beavis case is distinguished.

    9. BPA Code of Practice which binds this Claimant, has mandatory rules about extra signage for new restrictions, at 18.10:
    ''Where there is a change in the terms and conditions that materially affects the motorist then you must make these terms and conditions clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability where none previously existed then you must consider a transition to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust and familiarise themselves with the changes. Best practice would be the installation of additional/temporary signage at the entrance and throughout the site making it clear that new terms and conditions apply. This will ensure such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the previous terms become aware of the new ones.''


    10. It is denied that the Claimant’s signage - such as it was - sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. There is no ‘Red Hand Rule’ style warning giving appropriate prominence to the onerous risk of being bound by terms that introduce a 'hidden pitfall or trap' (Beavis case wording from the Supreme Court) that leads to a penalty that was never capable of being agreed.

    11. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the POFA') in Schedule 4, Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case being a maximum of 100, if the Claimant has a cause of action at all, which is denied.

    12. Regarding purported 'legal costs', according to Ladak v DRC Locums UKEAT/0488/13/LA the Claimant can only recover the direct and provable costs of the time spent on preparing the claim in a legal capacity, not any administration costs allegedly incurred by already remunerated clerical staff. Not only are such costs not permitted (CPR 27.14) but the Defendant believes that the Claimant has not incurred any case-specific legal costs, because no solicitor is likely to have supervised this current batch of cut & paste claims at all and this Claimant uses an in house administrative team. It is noted that no named solicitor has signed the claim form.

    13. It is an abuse of process for the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim that it is not entitled to recover. The acid test is whether the conduct permits of a reasonable explanation, but the Defendant avers it cannot. Claims such as this have recently been struck out by County Courts for reasons of: ''Substantial charge additional to the parking charge. Additional charge not recoverable under the POFA, Pre-action Protocol and CPRs...this is an abuse of process.''

    14. Even if letters were sent by any third party, debt collection agencies act on a no-win-no-fee basis for parking operators, therefore no costs or damages have been incurred, in truth. Nor can a parking operator add any 'damages' to the PCN sum, not even if a further sum is mentioned on signage, because this would exceed the maximum parking charge (100). Any additional charge for damages/indemnity costs (howsoever described) for parking on private land is not recoverable under the BPA Code of Practice and/or the POFA Schedule 4, nor with reference to the CPRs, the pre-action protocol for debt claims and the judgment in the Beavis case.

    15. It was held in the Supreme Court in Beavis (where 85 was claimed, and no more) that a private parking charge already includes a very significant and high percentage in profit and more than covers the costs of running an automated regime of template letters (including any pre-action 'debt recovery' letters which are all part of a template chain). Thus, there can be no 'damages' to pile on top of any parking charge claim, and the Defendant asks that the Court takes judicial notice of this industry's repeated abuse of consumers' rights and remedies by attempting double recovery.


    16. In summary, it is the Defendant’s position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using the case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    STATEMENT OF TRUTH
    The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true.


    SIGNED

    DATE
    Originally posted by Pcnhater
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-04-2019 at 12:51 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 3rd Apr 19, 1:32 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Wow thats great. Thanks Coupon-mad. So i'll add all that to my defence and correct the typos right?

    Just out of interest would a judge expect you to go through each individual point on the day?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 19, 1:50 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes they will expect you to outline your defence and your Witness Statement that comes later. This is just the easy bit!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 3rd Apr 19, 2:45 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    The easy bit how much more detail is the WS going to have? Do you think with the golf club admitting fault that this will actually have its day in court? I just cant imagine what their case is going to be built on after the golf clubs e mail.

    Thanks again Coups
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 19, 5:28 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I expect if they have any sense they'll discontinue before a hearing, but not yet.

    See the NEWBIES thread or ANY other of the zillions of court threads that are ahead of you, for the equally easy WS stage (just needs the story told in the first person, and your evidence).

    See the NEWBIES thread for all stages including how to complete the DQ.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 3rd Apr 19, 5:34 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Ah ok that sounds less daunting then. Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you posted on any updates.
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 5th Apr 19, 4:15 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Hi all.

    Well lastest update is good news. Golf club manager forwarded me an email from PPC saying they have agreed to cancel the PCN.

    Now obviously one could assume thats the end of it but could any of you kind folk advise me. Do i still need to submit my defence etc?

    As usual any advice greatly appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 19, 8:24 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes!

    Defend, you MUST, until you know the claim is discontinued.

    This costs you nothing and is just a case of emailing the signed/dated defence to the CCBCAQ email over the weekend. You must cover your back, in case.


    Change #4 to this:

    4. The Golf Club Manager has emailed the Claimant to have the parking ticket cancelled, and the golf club has admitted full responsibility for the Defendant's vehicle registration not being entered correctly on the day in question. The Defendant now holds a second email from the Golf Club Manager, who has forwarded an email from this Claimant, stating unequivocally that they have agreed to cancel the unfair parking charge. The Defendant will produce these emails in evidence should this Claimant proceed to trial, and will be claiming all related pre-action and post-action costs on the indemnity basis pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14(2)(g), should this Claimant's conduct be so vexatious and unreasonable as to fail to discontinue this claim.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-04-2019 at 8:28 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 5th Apr 19, 8:35 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Ok thanks for the info. I was thinking that submitting my defence would still be necessary "just incase" i'll do this tomorrow. So if they drop the case is it the court or ppc that let you know?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 19, 8:48 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Could be either/both of them sending you a Notice of Discontinuance.

    And when you get it, can I just say...ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 5th Apr 19, 8:52 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Great! That will be a happy day

    Thanks for all the help
    • Pcnhater
    • By Pcnhater 16th Apr 19, 9:42 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Pcnhater
    Latest update is after submitting my defence last week I have logged into mcol and see the latest action is not defence submitted but notification of claim discontinued... yesssssssss

    Now that is the end of this whole annoying saga.....right?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 19, 11:38 PM
    • 70,386 Posts
    • 82,979 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes - you win! HOORAY!!

    ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,521Posts Today

7,507Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Have a great Easter, or a chag sameach to those like me attending Passover seder tomorrow. I?m taking all of next? https://t.co/qrAFTIpqWl

  • RT @rowlyc1980: A whopping 18 days off work for only 9 days leave! I?ll have a bit of that please......thanks @MartinSLewis for your crafty?

  • RT @dinokyp: That feeling when you realise that you have 18 days of work and only used 9 days of your annual leave! Thanks @MartinSLewis h?

  • Follow Martin