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  • FIRST POST
    • Pabbo
    • By Pabbo 11th Mar 19, 6:29 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Pabbo
    LBC-puchased ticket after grace period
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 19, 6:29 PM
    LBC-puchased ticket after grace period 11th Mar 19 at 6:29 PM
    I have received a LBC as the registered keeper and would appreciate some advice. The driver using the car park for the first time was aware that they would have to pay the maximum charge for the day. As "the driver" was early for work they waited in the car for more than 10 minutes before purchasing the ticket. I received the PCN declaring the ticket had not been purchased within the 10 minute grace period. The parking company rejected my appeal that the ticket allowed parking for 12 hours and the vehicle vacated the car park a number of hours before that. The driver was not aware of any clear signage at the entrance to the car park at that time, but it appears there are now signs there. The charge seems unreasonable, but am I likely to get this thrown out if I go to court?
    Thanks
Page 1
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 11th Mar 19, 6:33 PM
    • 797 Posts
    • 1,056 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 19, 6:33 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 19, 6:33 PM
    How long after the 10 minutes 'grace period' was the ticket purchased?
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 19, 11:42 PM
    • 70,218 Posts
    • 82,800 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 19, 11:42 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 19, 11:42 PM
    You haven't said which PPC, and whether POPLA has been offered.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pabbo
    • By Pabbo 12th Mar 19, 8:40 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Pabbo
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 19, 8:40 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 19, 8:40 PM
    Thanks for the reply
    HX car park management. They offered appeal to IAS not POPLA. I did not take up this appeal.
    The driver did not purchase the ticket for around 19 minutes.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 19, 10:05 PM
    • 70,218 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 19, 10:05 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 19, 10:05 PM
    OK, good, we almost always beat Gladstones/HX cases. See the NEWBIES thread.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Pabbo
    • By Pabbo 15th Apr 19, 1:20 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Pabbo
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 19, 1:20 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 19, 1:20 PM
    I have now received a County Court claim form and am in the processes of compiling a defence. I will be grateful for any advice.
    A couple of questions before I post this:
    1. Do the car park company have an obligation to show the signage that was present at the time of the incident? As we believe more obvious signage has been erected.
    2. Do i need to state in the defence that the charge was incurred for not paying within the grace period?

    I have based this on one of the templates:

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration XXXX, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on said date in a marked bay and paid the maximum charge for the day. This payment allows for 12 hours parking and the vehicle was parked for 9 hours 16 minutes.


    3. The terms on the Claimant's signage are displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract. Additionally, it is noted that new signs have since been erected at the entrance to the car park: suggesting that HX were fully aware of this inadequate signage.

    4. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    5. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case 100. The claim includes an additional 60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    6. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 1:44 PM
    • 12,626 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 19, 1:44 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 19, 1:44 PM
    They are trying to scam you. Let them take you to court where a judge will, I am sure, see through it, and perhaps even award you CPR27.14(2)(g) costs.

    Also get your MP on side, they are very familiar with this scan. On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Apr 19, 2:31 PM
    • 14,268 Posts
    • 16,208 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 19, 2:31 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 19, 2:31 PM
    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Apr 19, 5:22 PM
    • 70,218 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 19, 5:22 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 19, 5:22 PM
    That defence looks good - says what it needs to.

    A couple of questions before I post this:

    1. Do the car park company have an obligation to show the signage that was present at the time of the incident? As we believe more obvious signage has been erected. Yes, in their Witness Statement later.

    2. Do i need to state in the defence that the charge was incurred for not paying within the grace period? No, I wouldn't write the Claimant's case for them.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 15th Apr 19, 5:27 PM
    • 3,520 Posts
    • 5,184 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    1. Do the car park company have an obligation to show the signage that was present at the time of the incident? As we believe more obvious signage has been erected.
    Originally posted by Pabbo
    As well as what C-M has said, your point 3 should also assert that the signage does not specify when a ticket must be purchased. It's then for the claimant to disprove that by showing the actual signage that was there on the day, and that it really does say when a ticket must be purchased.
    If you don't ask, you don't get.
    • Pabbo
    • By Pabbo 21st Apr 19, 12:00 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Pabbo
    The issue date was 8th April.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 21st Apr 19, 12:12 PM
    • 14,268 Posts
    • 16,208 Thanks
    KeithP
    The issue date was 8th April.
    Originally posted by Pabbo
    I'll assume it came from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton.
    Please confirm.

    With a Claim Issue Date of 8th April, you have until Monday 29th April to do the Acknowledgement of Service, but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. To do the AoS, follow the guidance offered in a Dropbox file linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread. About ten minutes work - no thinking required.

    Having done the AoS, you have until 4pm on Monday 13th May 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's over three weeks away. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • rachity
    • By rachity 21st Apr 19, 1:01 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    rachity
    I have not found anywhere (in PoFA 2012, the relevant Codes of Practice, or anywhere else) where it states that the payment must be made withun the 10 or so mins grace period.
    Could be mistaken, though.
    (I'm assuming this is an ANPR case?)
    Last edited by rachity; Yesterday at 1:04 PM.
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