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  • FIRST POST
    • Wharfedale
    • By Wharfedale 11th Mar 19, 11:12 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Wharfedale
    PCN Abbey Walk Retail Park, Selby from VCS
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 19, 11:12 AM
    PCN Abbey Walk Retail Park, Selby from VCS 11th Mar 19 at 11:12 AM
    Hi
    I recieved a PCN from VTC regarding an overstay at the above car park. This was issued on 29/1/2019, with the picture of entry and exit on 8/9/2018. Having read through the various posts as a newbie, I set up my appeal on the fact that the NTK should have been issued within 14 days of the event, rather than 143 days. I revisited the site, and there was a proliferation of signs around the car park, which although very visible on a clear sunny day, had not been noticed on a dark, wet night.
    Am I right in thinking that if the NTK arrives after 14 days (plus a reasonable time for postage) that their case is flimsy - especially so long after the event. In my reading of the posts, there was some mention of keeping documentation for 5 or 6 years, but I'm not sure how this applies.
    This is a copy of my appeal.

    "I challenge this 'Parking Charge Notice' as keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and there will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.
    In accordance with POFA 2012, Section 4, Paragraph 9.5, any postal Notice To Keeper must arrive with the keeper by day 14 after the alleged contravention date,as there was no windscreen ticket. As you state the contravention date was 08/09/2018, then it must arrive on or before 22/09/2018. Your Notice To Keeper is dated 29/01/2019, somewhat after the cut-off date.

    As you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than 250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Formal note:
    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this appeal remains the current address for service in the future."

    I received a reply 21 days after the appeal by email, saying they reject the appeal. The letter states they feel the signs are clear and legible, and waffle on about the signs meeting IPC Code of Practice standards. They also state that the DPA 1998 was superceded by the DPA 2018. Has Section 10 of DPA1998 been given another heading in DPA 2018?
    At no point do they refer to my main appeal case that the NTK was issued after 143 days.
    There is the usual advice of either pay up the 60 or appeal to the IAS, after which it will be 100.
    They also state that no further appeals will be accepted at this office.
    Am I right in thinking that the 14 day notice is binding, or what other actions are required. the appeal to the IAS should be done by 20th March.

    Many thanks for your consideration.
    Regards
    Wharfedale
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Mar 19, 12:01 PM
    • 39,305 Posts
    • 87,755 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 19, 12:01 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 19, 12:01 PM
    You are now in ignore mode unless you get real court papers. Come back here to this thread if that happens.

    The 14 days applies if the scammers wish to transfer liability to the keeper. They don't have to use the PoFA if they don't want to.

    That doesn't stop the scammers from bullying and lying to you.


    What happened when you complained to the landowner/retail shop manager?

    Please complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 11-03-2019 at 12:11 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Wharfedale
    • By Wharfedale 11th Mar 19, 7:41 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Wharfedale
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 19, 7:41 PM
    PCN Abbey Walk Retail Park, Selby from VCS
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 19, 7:41 PM
    Many thanks for that Fruitcake, I will wait for any further correspondence.
    When I returned to the car park, I called in at Sainsbury's to see if the manager was available. They weren't, but in talking to the person on the customer services desk, and the security guard on duty, it seems they get a lot of people complaining about parking charges. They mentioned about a disabled woman who's car had broken down, and who had rung VCS to say that it would be a while before the recovery people could come and move her car. They were told that it was OK, and they would not be issued with a notice now that it had been reported. A parking charge demand arrived a few days later, not sure what the outcome was.
    I will pursue it further with my MP, along with the Selby MP, and the one mentioned in one of the threads who is taking issue with parking pirates. I will update you on any further information.
    Best regards
    Wharfedale
    • Wharfedale
    • By Wharfedale 26th Mar 19, 3:04 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Wharfedale
    • #4
    • 26th Mar 19, 3:04 PM
    Wharfedale
    • #4
    • 26th Mar 19, 3:04 PM
    Hi
    I may have made a schoolboy error in that instead of sitting and waiting, I filled in the appeal to IAS stating my position regarding the late arrival of the NTK. However, it has drawn VCS's hand in that I have their logic for rejecting my appeal.
    It states that there are 28 signs situated at key locations stating "Customers only" and "2 hours maximum stay", and there is a pretty map showing their locations (like teenage acne) and pictures of the signs taken on a sunny day. The signs are allowed under Permitted Development without submitting a planning application, having checked with the planning office.
    They state that " they have not cited PoFA 2012 nor stated that the appellant was liable for the Charge as the vehicle keeper" and as such they have presumed on the balance of probability that the appellant was the driver. Therefore the 14 day limit does not apply. They site Elliot v Loake 1982 establishing the legal principle that unless evidence to the contrary is produced, the keeper shall be deemed the driver at the time of the event. This appears to be 'guilty unless proved otherwise!'
    Having looked at this case, there seems to be a lot of other contributing evidence in this case which probably has more weight to the judges decision.
    They continue, stating that operators are not required to to use the keeper liability provisions within PoFA 2012.
    They go on claiming that the details of the keeper have not been improperly requested from the DVLA, and they adhere to the the code of practice (cos they are really nice people).

    The question now is 'do I provide further evidence to back up my case (if so, what?), refer the case straight to arbitration, or ignore the time limit and go back to the waiting game. Any further responses should be before 1/4/19 23:59

    On a separate tack, are they required to calibrate the ANPR clocks for accuracy, (or is this in-built,) and if so, how often are they required to check it, and who issues certificates?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Mar 19, 3:12 PM
    • 70,207 Posts
    • 82,782 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 26th Mar 19, 3:12 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Mar 19, 3:12 PM
    You can't, you will lose at IAS. This was pointless and will now stress you out, making you feel less certain about your position when you lose.

    VCS always cite Elliott v Loake, pointlessly. But the IAS swallow it.

    There are no laws about how they calibrate ANPR; they can do what they like.

    Come back at court claim stage which is where it is worth doing - IAS is NOT.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Wharfedale
    • By Wharfedale 27th Mar 19, 7:49 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Wharfedale
    • #6
    • 27th Mar 19, 7:49 AM
    • #6
    • 27th Mar 19, 7:49 AM
    Thanks Coupon Mad. I will go into wait and see mode, and chill out for a while. I'll do a bit of background reading in preparation.
    • D_P_Dance
    • By D_P_Dance 27th Mar 19, 8:46 AM
    • 277 Posts
    • 373 Thanks
    D_P_Dance
    • #7
    • 27th Mar 19, 8:46 AM
    • #7
    • 27th Mar 19, 8:46 AM
    If they took this to court relying on Elliot v Loake they will struggle. Read some of these

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=parking+prankster+elliot+v+loake&form=EDN THT&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&refig=6aa96984f39b45a9a5a0ac78474e46 0a&PC=ACTS&sp=1&ghc=1&qs=SC&pq=parking+orankster+e lliot+v+loake&sc=1-32&cvid=6aa96984f39b45a9a5a0ac78474e460a&cc=GB&set lang=en-GB

    and complain to your MP.

    Complain to your MP. On 18th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    Treat everyday as your last one on earth! and one day you will be right.
    • Wharfedale
    • By Wharfedale 16th Apr 19, 1:56 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Wharfedale
    • #8
    • 16th Apr 19, 1:56 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Apr 19, 1:56 PM
    Well, as expected, the appeal to IAS produced the expected cut and paste response. I will do a bit of prep just in case the avalanche of demands and treats arrive. Is there anything specific on ANPR charges which don't include iffy signage. I've noticed a rash of signs from other companies seen to have blighted many of the local supermarkets, though mostly smaller than those of VCS. Having had a chat with the planning dept at a local council, it seems that erection of these signs is permitted under the guise of permitted development. More like a blot on the landscape.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Apr 19, 2:22 PM
    • 38,619 Posts
    • 22,562 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #9
    • 16th Apr 19, 2:22 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Apr 19, 2:22 PM
    There's no need to prep for the debt collector stage you are now in.

    As you were advised in #5 above!

    See the newbies faq #4

    You now ignore everything except a lbcca or court correspondence

    If/when it comes to that then come back to the FAQ for advice on how to deal with court claims
    Last edited by Quentin; 16-04-2019 at 2:26 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 19, 12:16 AM
    • 70,207 Posts
    • 82,782 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Prep by searching for:

    VCS Wilkes

    to prepare for a court claim. VCS have form for sending reps with no ROA.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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