Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 27th Feb 19, 12:35 AM
    • 44Posts
    • 5Thanks
    Xircom
    Excel PNC v Xircom
    • #1
    • 27th Feb 19, 12:35 AM
    Excel PNC v Xircom 27th Feb 19 at 12:35 AM
    Hello Everyone

    I’m new to this site but thought I join just to get the head up and some good advice. First the bad move I made.. (you plonker Rodney) OK so I parked in Charlton-!!!-Hardy 20 Nov 2018 and I had 1/2 a wheel over the white bay line (Bad parking) any how’s... I got a ticket never saw the ticket ( I founded it 2 months later when I had put windscreen washer in my car, it had slipped into the engine bay. So, carry on, I received a letter today saying “Demand for Payment” big red letters cost £160.00 dead line 08/03/2018 so I phoned them and asked what this charge is for, Liam “that the chap who spoke with me” said for a parking contravention, I asked where?
    Square Shopping Centre Car Park “Charlton-!!!-hardy”
    When “20 Nov 2018”
    Liam “We sent a Letter on 24 Jan 2019”
    Me “No never received a letter”
    Me “I’ll check the company diary, yes the car was in Charlton-!!!-hard, yes the car was parked in that car park, at 13:30pm, at what time was the ticket issued?”
    Liam 13:53pm
    the car was " parked at 13:30Pm” So I'm happy to say yes it our company car and were willing to pay the initial fine, so long as you can show us that you sent the initial letter, which you said you sent on 24/1/2019”
    Liam “No ; we sent the letter as per the county courts, we would like full payment”
    Me “ No that not fair, I never received the first letter, tell you what, it a company car, I was there, so I’ll pay the initial fine so long as you can sent me the first letter and proof of delivery?” that fair.
    Liam “No I want full payment, or we will continue on the Debt recover plan”
    Me” Oh, that not good, ok well I made you and offer, you refused it, so I suppose we will have to follow your plan.
    Liam “Hanged Up”

    Ok so my big mistake was talking to the guys, I drafted a letter admitting that it our company car, that we would be willing to pay the initial fine, I also stated that I consider the new demand £160.00 to be disproportionate to the actual financial loss that the company has made given that It was parked in say two parking bay for 2 hours at £2.10 and we paid £2.10 to park in one, so the loss is £2.10

    I then looked at the issue of signs and ANPR Cameras, I spoke with a Planning Office, who told me that “they not had any planning orders on that car park or entrance, since 1993, when they applied to have 2 speed bumps and two pay stations installed” he then told me that they never applied for permission on ANPR and that he worked on an order for McDonald’s to have two ANPR but found that ANPR are not covered on any UK.Gov Instructions.

    So… How this goes,

    1. Do I stop communicating with them?
    2. Send the Letter and wait for them to say.. No, we want our money, given that I already spoke to them, have some fun, playing on the fact that I made them an offer, any Judge would say well he made you an offer and through it out, that’s my thinking
    3. Go with the fight that you have no planning permissions for the ANPR on poles, not fixed to building and no planning permission for sings, “which they don’t need” but has it a contract agreement they need son consent permission or?? Something like that?

    I happy to accept any advice.. so long as you don’t say pay the !!!!!!s. I happy for you to call me a BLONKER for talking to them.. bad move but it’s done. Thanks Guys & Gals

    Xircom
    Last edited by Xircom; 03-03-2019 at 3:00 PM.
Page 3
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 11th Jun 19, 2:29 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    they were correct
    deleted out now.
    Last edited by Xircom; 11-06-2019 at 2:31 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Jun 19, 2:34 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    I think I expect the debit to be sold to a 3rd party for collection but will wait and see.
    Originally posted by Xircom
    No debt will be sold.

    However, the PPC may well engage a Debt Collector.
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 11th Jun 19, 3:02 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    Should I send this letter
    I'm now think of following that email up with this letter

    Dear Sir or Madam

    Parking Charge Notice [xxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxxxxxxx]

    Subject access request ( Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) ) [My full name and address, Managing Director of Xircom Systems Limited].

    Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself and my company, If you need any more data from me to confirm my identity please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

    If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

    Yours faithfully

    Company Secretary
    Xircom Systems Ltd

    I've not displayed my full name and address in this sample but it is in the document ready to be sent, again by email in PDF format.

    1. Should I send this now or wait?
    2. Should I sent it all?

    My understanding is for them to issue a Notice to Hirer, they must have contact DVLA for my details and then contacted my lease company in order to get my trading address and my company registered address, at no time have the specified my name in their letters everything is addressed to my company and it either to my trading address or to my accountants which is my registered address as per companies house. If they have this information then under GDPR they have a duty to tell me where it stored, in what format and who has access to this data. I think this could be a breach of GDPR regulation.

    Let me have your views before I send or don't depending.

    thanks
    Xircom
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 19, 10:26 PM
    • 76,535 Posts
    • 89,870 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Looks OK to end that SAR.

    You are saying the Defendant will be the company? Therefore as Director you will have to attend court wherever the parking firm choose, as a company Defendant doesn't get the choice of court, just so you know.

    they still have to adhere to POFA Regulations ; Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4.
    No, it's not mandatory. They can pursue the driver if they think they know who that was, or they will be pursuing your company based on the law of agency (read CPS v AJH Films as that case will be used).

    if it goes to CCJ / Court then that a different ball-game, I think I expect the debit to be sold to a 3rd party for collection
    No, they can't do that. You need to read more threads exactly like yours.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 14th Jun 19, 6:38 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    having read you reply Coupon-Mad ; I followed the link to this information

    Any properly qualified legal person would know that a person is not generally liable in law for the actions of somebody they have allowed somebody else to use. If they were, then there would have been no need for the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, schedule 4, which can be used to artificially transfer liability from driver to keeper in some situations. The hire car industry would also not be able to exist, as they would be liable for the actions of anyone using their cars.

    Excel and BW Legal tried to convince the court that this was not the case. Although they succeeded at first, their scheme came unstuck when the motorist appealed. Their greed cost Excel two lots of advocate fees and resulted in a persuasive appeal decision which can now be used against them.

    I can see how this would act in this instance, I'm the MD for Xircom Systems Ltd hired the car and the car is used as a pool car in my company, I don't have to disclose who the driver was and as it was parked at a shopping centre the likelihood is that it was not used for business on that day or time but for personal use. they can try to place the debit on my lap.

    That's how I read the situation.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 12:02 AM
    • 76,535 Posts
    • 89,870 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    as it was parked at a shopping centre the likelihood is that it was not used for business on that day or time but for personal use
    Now you are talking, this is exactly what a Company defence should say.

    Otherwise you will find the PPC will try to use CPS v AJH Films and the lw of agency, which can and does apply to companies when their employees are acting on their behalf in the course of work.

    So the more you can say to distance the event from that possibility, the more likely a Judge will agree with you that this is NOT a case where vicarious liability applies.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 2:12 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    OK today I received a Claim Form N1SDT issued from County Court Business Centre ; I just drafting my defence and will post it up for comment be submitting it online.
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 2:29 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    (Company Name) Limited v Excel Parking Services Ltd
    Dated 23rd July 2019
    Claim No. XXXXXXXXX

    Defence Statement
    Company XXXX does not accept any liability to this claim for the following reasons.
    1. According to Excel the car REG No.......was parked in the “The Square Shopping Centre Car Park” on 20th Nov 2018 @ 13:53 incorrectly, (Company name) has never disputed the fact that the registration is one of our vehicles. We asked Excel for proof and a copy of the original PNC, we also asked why it had taken over 60 days for a letter demanding payment, which was received on the 24th Jan 2019

    2. (Company Name) telephoned Excel and were give short, sharp reply, “they (Excel) did not have to provide proof”

    3. The car is sometimes used as a pool car for (Company Name) and on that day, it was booked out to a job in Chorlton by an AD-Hoc Contract Engineer, as our man was off sick and the Contractor’s car was in the garage. We have the engineers name but no forward address as he was hired via an agency, also my understanding is that I have no liability to say who was driving at the time of this alleged offence, the other issue is if the PNC had been on the car we would have acted quicker and the contract engineer would have settled it as it was by the time we received the first letter some 60 days later the engineer had left our company and moved on to new contracts.

    4. We would also like to point out that the car was parked in a shopping centre care park, during a time “which looks like it may have been lunch time” this was not work related and as far as I can see not (Company Name) Limited responsibility.

    5. Excel are using Freedoms Act 2012, schedule 4, which can be used to artificially transfer liability from driver to keeper in some situations. If this was such a case the hire car industry would also not be able to exist, as they would be liable for the actions of anyone using their cars. CPS vs AJH Films. DDJ Cowell found that CPS vs AJH Films allowed the transfer of liability from Driver to Registered Keeper as the driver was the keeper's agent. However, following the judgment Mr Smith expressed surprise as he had previously had an identical claim dismissed where CPS v AJH Films was found not to apply. DDJ Cowell acknowledged that had this been known to her before then the Judgment may well have been different. She gave permission to appeal both claims. On appeal it was found that CPS v AJH Films is only applicable in an employee/employer situation.

    6. Is his not such a situation. Where I ‘am an employer but the driver was not employed by me but contracted by a 3rd party? Had the PNC been on the car and or the initial letter arrived whilst the contractor was with my company then it would have been settled immediately, had the person from Excel who we telephoned acted professional and supplied the initial PNC and letter we would have paid immediately and been able to claim our cost back from the contract engineer, as it is the time scale was to great, the engineer has moved on
    Last edited by Xircom; 22-07-2019 at 8:09 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 4:41 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did the Claim Form come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?

    Is that a real Claim Number in your most recent post?
    If so, you had best obliterate it as it uniquely identifies you and your incident.

    That Defence doesn't look like any I have seen before.
    Have you read the many example Defences linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES thread?
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 5:31 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    Issue Date 17 July 2019
    Money Claims Online
    COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE
    ST KATHARINE HOUSE
    21-27 ST KATHARINE'S STREET
    NN1 2LH

    I've not read any defence, this is mine all open, honest and true. but I will go and have a look
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 5:35 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    Issue Date 17 July 2019
    Money Claims Online
    COUNTY COURT BUSINESS CENTRE
    Originally posted by Xircom
    With a Claim Issue Date of 17th July, you have until Monday 5th August to do the Acknowledgement of Service, but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. To do the AoS, follow the guidance offered in a Dropbox file linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread. About ten minutes work - no thinking required.

    Having done the AoS, you have until 4pm on Monday 19th August 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's four weeks away. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, and it is good to see that you are not leaving it to the last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 5:59 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    Simple Defence POFA schedule 4

    I do not believe Excel Parking Services Ltd, have provided, any evidence to prove who is liable for the contravention they claim has taken place. (Company Name) Ltd is the registered keeper of a vehicle, but Excel Parking Services Ltd have not provided any proof to show who was driving the vehicle. (Company Name) Ltd was and is registered keeper for car, at the time the contravention is alleged to have taken place.
    Last edited by Xircom; 22-07-2019 at 8:10 PM.
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 6:21 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    found the thread but not the dropbox link, can you point me in the right direction? I'm reading more about notice to keeper and Section 4 from what I read Excel contract on the sign's is between them and the driver not the registered keeper. so what your pointing out is that I dont have to mention that he was a contractor and not employed by me, which I thought was a good point as section 4, (8) goes on about employer and employee liability but my chap was ad-hoc contract via a 3rd party
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 6:28 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    found the thread but not the dropbox link, can you point me in the right direction?
    Originally posted by Xircom
    Glad you found the NEWBIES thread - I did give you a link to it.

    As said, you need to be reading the second post on that thread.
    Each post on that thread is quite long.

    In the second post you will see:
    Here is a guide to MCOL & how to acknowledge service (the first step), put together by a genuine PPC fighter:
    ...with a dropbox link following.


    Another way of finding it is to use the windows ctrl+F looking for the first occurrence of dropbox. Easy.
    Last edited by KeithP; 22-07-2019 at 6:35 PM.
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 7:34 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    OK so I logged on the MCOL but that's only if I want to counter claim, I already have an account with them as I used them to claim against Yodel. That's not what I really want to do, not bother about counter claim I was just looking for my defence under Notice to Keeper ; any bye the way, thanks for you help it much appreciated.

    From what I'm reading it would seem to get my defence noted I need to counter claim, so that would be for my time and loss (is that about right?)
    Last edited by Xircom; 22-07-2019 at 7:41 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 7:38 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    OK so I logged on the MCOL but that's only if I want to counter claim.
    Originally posted by Xircom
    No it's not.

    Follow the guidance in that dropbox file.

    Loads of people do this every day. I cannot understand why you are having difficulties.
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 7:45 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    OK OK RTFM (read the flipping manual) I'm jumping point and not reading, sorry will slow down thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 7:49 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    A simple Google search has just told me your full name and home address.

    You would be wise to change your forum username to something much more anonymous.

    To help with that, you might like to read this short extract from The MSE Forum Guide - Frequently Asked Questions & Rules:
    Q. How can I change my username?

    A.
    In most circumstances, this is not permitted.

    The only reason we will change your username is if it puts your privacy at risk. This usually means you've inadvertently registered using your name, email address or something that gives away your identity within your username.

    If you fall into this category, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com and request that it is changed, giving three alternative usernames in order of preference.
    You might also want to edit that part of post #45 above where you tell the world the name of your company and your position in it.

    Post #48 above has the vehicle's registration number clearly visible together with the Defendant's full name.

    You should remove the Defendant's name from all posts where you have mentioned it.
    .
    • Xircom
    • By Xircom 22nd Jul 19, 7:56 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Xircom
    AoS completed ; did not like the part where i had to place my name as they not had a name on any paperwork ; so the next stage is start Defence reading you guide it's saying fill in the defence and print, sign scan back in and send, is the only defence document not the same?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 19, 7:59 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,806 Thanks
    KeithP
    AoS completed ; did not like the part where i had to place my name as they not had a name on any paperwork ; so the next stage is start Defence reading you guide it's saying fill in the defence and print, sign scan back in and send, is the only defence document not the same?
    Originally posted by Xircom
    What?

    You didn't put anything in the Defence box while doing the AoS did you?

    Just follow the guidance for filing a Defence that I gave you earlier.
    .
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,294Posts Today

7,262Users online

Martin's Twitter