Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 23rd Feb 19, 9:39 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Mattdab
    Urgent help please!
    • #1
    • 23rd Feb 19, 9:39 AM
    Urgent help please! 23rd Feb 19 at 9:39 AM
    So, I will start in the beginning.

    I went to a local private multi-storey car park in hope of finding a space... loads of traffic and took me a while to get in, up through and around the 2 floors and back out to find somewhere else as there was no space available.
    This was 21/08/2018

    Had a PCN come through a while after, before doing any research I just ignored it thinking ďwell I didnít actually park so F@#k youĒ the car park has ANPR and I believe the time in and time out was around 16minutes, canít recall entirely!

    Had two other letters since from Trace and BW legal and just ignored them thinking itíll go away.

    Today I have received a Claim Form for
    ďcounty court business centre
    4th floor st Katherineís house
    21-27 st Katherineís street
    Northampton
    Nn1 2lhĒ

    For a total amount of £242.40
    (Amount claimed £167.40, court fee £25, legal rep costs £50)

    Iíve tried looking through some posts but itís all too deep and with 3 toddlers under 3 running round itís not quite so simple to actually find an answer!

    Iím thinking I shouldnít have ignored everything, but, whatís done is done.

    What should I do now? I have never contacted any of the companies involved or tried to appeal, I havent acknowledged anything.
    Please help as I cannot get a CCJ and am between a rock and a hard place

    Where should I go from here and whatís the best action to take?
    Thanks
Page 2
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 8th Apr 19, 8:20 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    So, another update!

    Received a letter from HM courts and tribunals service dated 11th March (didnít receive until after my last post oddly)
    Stating they have served a copy to the claimant (or solicitor) The claimant may contact me and if the dispute cannot be resolved informally, the claimant will inform the court they wish to proceed.
    They have 28 days to notify the courts, after that time period has elapsed, the claim will be stayed.

    It doesnít state 28 full days or 28 working days? However 28 full days was today and yet I havenít had any contact whatsoever, MCOL hasnít changed and is still saying ďdefendedĒ
    Should I expect contact from the court this week? How often at this stage do the parking firms/solicitors on their behalf just give up and not carry on?

    Also, received back my SAR, photos etc and it appears the photoís of my car on the said day have been doctored or altered.
    Itís the same photos with the same date as my original letter, yet the entry time has now changed on the time stamp to an hour before the actual entry time from 14:52 to 13:52 (the time on the original PCN form says 14:52)
    Yet the exit time remains the same at 15:07, for one, thatís not possible as I have my work clockcard from that day and didnít finish until my usual time of 14:30. And it means they have provided me with two pieces of the same documentation, both with different times?!
    This looks like they are altering evidence to try and back their case, surely they wouldnít be that stupid? Or could it be something else?

    Any input/opinions would be great Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 19, 12:38 AM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,853 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The first bit you describe is normal and it's likely to go quiet until you get a letter notifying you that it's been allocated to your local court.

    The second thing you wrote is astonishing, not normal and my jaw dropped!


    Also, received back my SAR, photos etc and it appears the photo’s of my car on the said day have been doctored or altered.
    It’s the same photos with the same date as my original letter, yet the entry time has now changed on the time stamp to an hour before the actual entry time from 14:52 to 13:52 (the time on the original PCN form says 14:52)

    Yet the exit time remains the same at 15:07, for one, that’s not possible as I have my work clockcard from that day and didn’t finish until my usual time of 14:30. And it means they have provided me with two pieces of the same documentation, both with different times?!

    National Car Parks Limited


    VERY naughty - that's a false instrument. An alleged forgery, one might say.

    I would email Steve Clark at the BPA and point him to this thread as he does read MSE threads about issues with his beloved fee paying AOS members:

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    ...and copy in the DPO of NCP, the person who sent you this data.

    Say to Mr Clark that you received back a SAR, photos etc. from NCP and it appears the timings photos of the car on the day have been doctored or altered and that NCP have passed you a false instrument, which you thought he might want to know about before you show a Judge in the case, and before a complaint wings its way to the Information Commissioner, Trading Standards, DVLA and the National papers too, with a reminder of what happened to UKPC for doctoring timings.

    Tell him you want this complaint flagged up to the DVLA as well as it is so serious, and also show him a link to this very thread to read.

    Tell him this and show him the evidence:
    It’s the same photos with the same date as my original letter, yet the entry time has now changed on the time stamp to an hour before the actual entry time from 14:52 to 13:52 (the time on the original PCN form says 14:52)
    Yet the exit time remains the same at 15:07, for one, that’s not possible as I have my work clockcard from that day and didn’t finish until my usual time of 14:30.
    Ask exactly HOW a data protection officer can possibly have a level of access that allows them to ALTER the time by an hour, on the timestamp from the photo, and if it's that easy then any parking firm could alter these all the time as part of back office practice.

    State that ANPR timings are a complete mockery if the time can be changed like this.

    Copy in the NCP person and wait...see what comes back.

    Head the email up:

    COMPLAINT ABOUT APPARENT DOCTORING OF PHOTO EVIDENCE TIMINGS, YET AGAIN, BY A BPA MEMBER - THIS TIME NCP
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-04-2019 at 12:42 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 8th Jun 19, 11:56 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    Further updates, some more advice would be great!

    The case is still happening, it's been allocated to my local court, I have the letter and its 5 weeks away (after it being sent to the wrong one and me arguing I didnt fancy travelling over 100miles to get there) however it still states on MCOL the original wrong court so I guess we will see if Ncp go to the right or wrong one!

    Directions questionairre completed as per recommended through this site so thanks all.
    Their copy from BWlegal asked for mediation and in the section D3 for witnesses (including yourself) they have put 0? Does this mean the BW rep cant say anything during court? I put 1 or is this simply so I can have a witness statement included?

    I have gathered all the paperwork I have received and printed out copies of BPA code of practice 13, NCP terms and conditions, civil practice direction 16(7.3-7.5) and also a copy of section 4 from protection of freedoms act to back up the points made in my defence.

    Now I know I have to write my witness statement and I have a draft from one of the links in the newbies thread (potentially from bargepole?)
    Is there anything specific I should be putting in there?

    Also, I feel a skeleton argument is necessary for me as they have conflicting evidence with different time stamps and altered photos with time stamp cropped out entirely from the SAR.
    I didnt get that information until after my defence was filed, am I right in thinking I can add this into a skeleton?
    Again, how would be best to go about this?

    And finally, court costs.
    I have a draft again but I'm unsure and struggling to find out the actual amounts? I have to get a day off work so what can I claim for this?

    All help is much appreciated!
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 8th Jun 19, 3:42 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    How would this be for a witness statement?
    I have referenced to an index consisting of

    Index.
    1. Defence
    2. Original parking charge notice to keeper
    3. Information requested from SAR
    4. Civil practice direction
    5. Claimant terms and conditions
    6. British parking association code of practice
    7. Protection of freedoms act
    8. Civil procedure rules - 2 parts (1page) (2 pages)
    9. Claimant Directions Questionairre
    10. Defendant Directions Questionairre


    1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxx , the Defendant in this matter, will say as follows:

    Attached to this statement is a paginated bundle of documents marked Index to which I will refer.

    2. I reside locally to the Britannia shopping centre car park and me and my wife use it regularly, paying the current parking tariff everytime we can find a space and park, all without conflict.

    3. a. On 21-08-2018, Our vehicle entered the carpark at 14:52:02, intending on us and our two young children (15months and 4 weeks old at the time) going shopping in the town centre, after waiting to gain access through the floors of the carpark, stopping regularly to allow other users to manoeuvre into or out of spaces, we attempted to find a suitable space for our large car. Good access to the rear doors and boot are necessary for the children and the pushchair, changebags etc.

    4. We tried to fit into a space or two, unable to do so in a way to allow the access we required, so we looked around for a larger space on the second and then the first floor to no avail.

    5. We then decided to leave the carpark at 15:07:14, again, having to allow motorists to manoeuvre in and out of spaces round the one way system within the carpark, we left upset that we couldn't find a suitable space and continued onto another carpark.

    6. a. 9 days later on the 30-08-2018, much to my surprise, I received a letter claiming that I, the keeper, was liable for a parking charge notice, stating I had breached the car park terms and conditions. I fail to understand how I can breach a contract I did not enter into, as stated in the civil practice direction 7.3, a copy of the contract constituting the agreement should be attached or served.(reference to Exhibit 4 of index) Of which I received no document.

    b. The British parking association code of practice section 13. It states that a reasonable grace period of a minimum 10 minutes must be given. I deny that a further 3 minutes and 12 seconds is extensive to try and find suitable places within the building. (Referance to exhibit 6 of index)

    c. Progressing on from this, I looked into the terms and conditions of NCP (reference to Exhibit 5 of index) of which they state under 5.4. That i only consent to them capturing, using and processing my personal details by parking. Of which didnt successfully happen. I deny that the driver of a vehicle entering a carpark, driving around unsuccessfully being able to park and exiting would count as "parking" under the contract rules.

    7. I requested a SAR from National car parks showing me photos of the car and copies of the parking charge notice.(reference to Exhibit 3 of Index) However I have noticed that the correct entry time of 14:52:02 is not the time stamped on the entry photo, the photo is actually marked as 13:52:02 although the written time and actual time was 14:52:02 as stated. Meaning the time stamp on the photo is in fact incorrect as I did not finish work until 14:30. However the exit time stated of 15:07:14 is correct on the photgraphic time stamp. I am confused as to how the ANPR camera's time can alter by 1 hour within the 13minutes and 12 seconds the vehicle was in the premises. I urge that the unreliability of the cameras timing, discrepancies and conflicts in the evidence offer no sustainability in the foundations of the case, leaving it totally without merit and able to be struck out pursuant to CPR3.4.(reference to exhibit 8 of index, CPR3.4(6))

    8. The final sum of which the claimant has given me is £242.40, despite all other points, I would portray my view as this being an excessive charge for the 13 minutes the driver and vehicle was driving around within the carpark.

    9. I invite the Court to dismiss this claim in its entirety, and to award my costs of dealing with this claim and attendance at the hearing, such as are allowable pursuant to CPR 27.14. (Reference to exhibit 9 of index)

    Statement of Truth

    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.

    Signature
    Date"

    Thanks in advance
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 9th Jun 19, 9:30 AM
    • 6,599 Posts
    • 6,633 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Modify as shown: -
    1. I am xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxx , the Defendant in this matter and will say as follows
    7. I requested submitted a SAR from to National car parks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jun 19, 10:58 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,853 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Directions questionairre completed as per recommended through this site so thanks all.
    Their copy from BWlegal asked for mediation and in the section D3 for witnesses (including yourself) they have put 0? Does this mean the BW rep cant say anything during court? I put 1 or is this simply so I can have a witness statement included?
    Search the forum rather than ask us basic questions like that, it's quicker:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75860068#post75860068

    Also, I feel a skeleton argument is necessary for me as they have conflicting evidence with different time stamps and altered photos with time stamp cropped out entirely from the SAR.
    I didnt get that information until after my defence was filed, am I right in thinking I can add this into a skeleton?
    Personally I wouldn't do a skeleton argument, just a longish WS covering the story of what happened and the applicable law and your other exhibits.

    A WS is the place for what you describe, as you will be telling the story around the parking event/signs/details and then moving on to the SAR and evidence from NCP and the fact you have noticed they've doctored the photos...and explain what you noticed.

    Have they really?!

    You need to claim extra high costs on the INDEMNITY basis for unreasonable conduct. Justica got over £700 awarded by listing the unreasonable conduct and handing that to the Judge at the end:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75807521#post75807521

    I have to get a day off work so what can I claim for this?
    Of course, and LOADS more, if the Judge us with you when you had over your bullet point list of unreasonable conduct.

    Have a look at Sassii's high costs schedule linked in the NEWBIES thread. Sassii got a 4 figure sum. It's mainly about how you argue it, plus a bit of luck as to what your Judge is like...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 14th Jun 19, 5:39 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    Another quick question that I cant seem to find out for definite.

    When I send the copies of my witness statement and all evidence I will rely on to the court and claimant, do I need to send them my costs schedule or should I leave that until on the day?
    And I have searched but cant find the link to sassii's case,
    If I do claim on an indemnity basis, do I have to specify any costs or just the facts and the judge will award an amount based on his/her decision?
    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 19, 5:45 PM
    • 25,008 Posts
    • 31,939 Thanks
    Redx
    use the forum search box (drop down) in the forum bar near the top on this parking forum

    click advanced search , put Sassii into the username box to search by membername

    check the threads associated with that member


    this is probably the thread you failed to find


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75020160&highlight=#post75020160


    take proof of any costs such as loss of earning etc with you on the day , a judge wont just take your word for it , especially if its more than £95

    info on submission of costs is also linked in post #2 of that NEWBIES thread, including a pro forma , surprised you missed it

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72079752#post72079752
    Last edited by Redx; 14-06-2019 at 5:57 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 14th Jun 19, 6:19 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    Thanks for the link to Sassii's thread! Means a lot.

    I had found that page and I have drafted my own costs sheet up, it was purely the high costs for unreasonable conduct I was confused about. If that's something I need to claim for in the costs schedule or if that's merely something that's awarded after me arguing the point in my witness statement etc
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 7:51 PM
    • 17,883 Posts
    • 21,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    That post that Redx kindly provided the link to includes a Costs Schedule.

    Did you read it? It's the third link in that post.

    It shows exactly how to detail a Costs Schedule.

    You need to spell out exactly what you are claiming. The Judge won't work it out for you.
    Last edited by KeithP; 14-06-2019 at 7:53 PM.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 11:35 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,853 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thanks for the link to Sassii's thread! Means a lot.

    I had found that page and I have drafted my own costs sheet up, it was purely the high costs for unreasonable conduct I was confused about. If that's something I need to claim for in the costs schedule or if that's merely something that's awarded after me arguing the point in my witness statement etc
    Originally posted by Mattdab
    Nothing that high is awarded unless:

    - you ask for it at the end, having filed a costs schedule days before, and

    - you can explain all the ways in which the C has been wholly unreasonable, and

    - the Judge agrees.

    So it's your job to try to emulate this shining example of costs for unreasonableness:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6001157

    If that poster can get over £700, and Sassii got four figures, then others can too, given the right Judge and a compelling list of wholly unreasonable conduct.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mattdab
    • By Mattdab 21st Jun 19, 5:58 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Mattdab
    Final update for everyone.

    My court date was the 15th July
    I had until 1st July to submit WS etc. However I was waiting until the last minute to post out.

    Yet today with 1 week left before the deadline, I recieved a letter

    "We enclose by way of service our clients Notice of Discontinuance, a copy of which has been filed at court"

    So I guess that solves that!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 21st Jun 19, 6:02 PM
    • 17,883 Posts
    • 21,788 Thanks
    KeithP
    That's good to hear.

    Best confirm with the court on Monday though.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Jun 19, 1:56 AM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,853 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Brilliant - you win then!

    ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,334Posts Today

8,370Users online

Martin's Twitter