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  • FIRST POST
    • Mortskii
    • By Mortskii 13th Jan 19, 10:11 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Mortskii
    BW Legal and Armtrac Security
    • #1
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:11 AM
    BW Legal and Armtrac Security 13th Jan 19 at 10:11 AM
    I am in need of some guidance regarding a PCN received from Armtrac Security in Oct 2018.

    This PCN was disputed at the time with Armtrac and refused. A subsequent appeal to BPA was also refused. Foolishly both of these processes were undertaken before seeking help on places like this so now Armtrac and BW legal have the correct details of driver at the time and address, email and phone number.

    I had received several letters from different companies chasing the debt which have been ignored. It looks as though the latest company to try is BW Legal. I have received a letter of claim from them dated 24th Dec 2018 which gives until 27th Jan for a response. This forum has been very helpful and I have sent an SAR to Armtrac Security as per the advice. I am in the process of compiling a LBC rebuttal to BW Legal but wanted some advice on the legal position of the claim as it differs from most threads that I have been reading.

    The vehicle was parked in a private car park owned by a private landowner and monitored by Armtrac Security. One of the spaces is sublet to a holiday home owner who uses the space for his paying guests and he provides a valid permit to be displayed in the vehicle when parking. At the time of the offence the vehicle was parked within a marked bay and displaying correctly the permit provided by the landlord which was both valid and in date. I have pictures of the permit displayed correctly at the time which is why I was so confused about the initial PCN and thought it must be a mistake. On further questioning, Armtrac are claiming that the permit (which is laminated) was clearly a photocopy and therefore not valid.

    I have written testimony from the holiday home owner that the permit was the correct one, his payments to the land owner were up to date and he believes the vehicle was parked correctly.

    I am in the process of trying to contact the land owner but this is proving to be difficult.

    My main questions are regarding the legal position of the claim as it is a sublet parking space.
    Do I ask to see a copy of the contract between the land owner and Armtrac?
    Do I ask to see a copy of any contract that exists between the land owner and holiday home owner?
    Does Armtrac have any authority to issue PCNs on the sublet space or does it need permission from the holiday home owner?
    The permit displayed was the one provided by the holiday home owner and he has confirmed it is the correct one, presumably in court BW Legal has to try and prove the permit displayed was a copy and only has a dark photograph taken at 5am in the morning to prove this (which is why I appealed at the time as I thought it was laughable and I can't believe it has got as far as this).
    As the vehicle was parked in a sublet space there has been no financial loss to the land owner so how can they claim as much?

    If I could get some guidance on the above questions it will help me draft the LBC rebuttal to BW Legal.

    Thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 19, 10:18 AM
    • 21,320 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:18 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:18 AM
    Do I ask to see a copy of the contract between the land owner and Armtrac?
    Do I ask to see a copy of any contract that exists between the land owner and holiday home owner?
    You can do, but don't go into shock if you get no response or it's refused.

    Does Armtrac have any authority to issue PCNs on the sublet space or does it need permission from the holiday home owner?
    You're drifting into the realms of lease and sub-letting contractual issues - way beyond the purview of this forum.

    In any court case you would argue all the points that you think might win your case, then it's up to a legally qualified Judge to interpret the law in making his/her decision.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jan 19, 10:34 AM
    • 10,116 Posts
    • 13,340 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:34 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:34 AM
    You are a third party and the home owner needs to do that.

    The home owner and the landowner needs to provide a letter that the permit is correct and valid and paid for.

    You can then rebut the BWLegal claim with proof

    BWLegal probably don't have a clue as they are only a Robo Claims firm and if they let this go to court and you have written proof that you were legally allowed to park, a judge would whoop BWL (again) and you can claim costs.
    Last edited by beamerguy; 13-01-2019 at 10:41 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Mortskii
    • By Mortskii 13th Jan 19, 11:34 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mortskii
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:34 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:34 AM
    "You're drifting into the realms of lease and sub-letting contractual issues - way beyond the purview of this forum."

    Yes I thought that was the case but just wanted any info that strengthens my position.
    • Mortskii
    • By Mortskii 13th Jan 19, 11:37 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mortskii
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:37 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:37 AM
    "The home owner and the landowner needs to provide a letter that the permit is correct and valid and paid for."

    I have letter form home owner and now just working on the landowner.

    Thanks for confirming what I had initially thought. Really can believe any of this has happened given the circumstances!!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jan 19, 11:41 AM
    • 10,116 Posts
    • 13,340 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:41 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:41 AM
    "The home owner and the landowner needs to provide a letter that the permit is correct and valid and paid for."

    I have letter form home owner and now just working on the landowner.

    Thanks for confirming what I had initially thought. Really can believe any of this has happened given the circumstances!!
    Originally posted by Mortskii
    The owner must get confirmation from the landowner to pass to you

    It's all a big scam which government are now trying to control

    But read up on BWLegal, not the smartest in the book
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5672664
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jan 19, 11:54 AM
    • 11,476 Posts
    • 11,556 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:54 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 19, 11:54 AM
    It is the will of Parliament that these scammers be put out of business.

    Hopefully that will take place in the near future. The Bill has passed through the HOC without hitch, and goes to the Lords soon. In the meantime involve your MP, the poor dears are buckling under the weight of complaints about these scammers.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

    Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Third Reading in late November, and, with a fair wind, will become Law next year.

    All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Mortskii
    • By Mortskii 13th Jan 19, 3:22 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mortskii
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 3:22 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 3:22 PM
    Thanks for the link. So just to be clear, I am at the stage of compiling the LBC rebuttal to BW Legal, do I include the fact I have the written statements from both the sub let third party and Landowner stating permit is correct or do I keep my powder dry and have a day in court?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 19, 3:27 PM
    • 21,320 Posts
    • 33,564 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 3:27 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 3:27 PM
    Both parties must attempt to narrow the issues to try to avoid the case getting to a hearing. Ambushes on the day of the hearing are likely to be disallowed by the Judge, and not considered.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jan 19, 4:53 PM
    • 10,116 Posts
    • 13,340 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks for the link. So just to be clear, I am at the stage of compiling the LBC rebuttal to BW Legal, do I include the fact I have the written statements from both the sub let third party and Landowner stating permit is correct or do I keep my powder dry and have a day in court?
    Originally posted by Mortskii
    As Umkomaas, you risk the judge thinking it was a Ambushe, and
    considering you are not Perry Mason, not a good idea

    What is good idea is that you tell them you have two letters proving you were allowed to park, the permit is valid and paid for.

    They then know and may even ask for proof. But just like them hiding behind lease/contract agreements and saying they will provide the information to the court only, you reserve the right to do the same.
    They may think it's a bluff and when they call you out, that's the point the judge will whoop them

    As long as you let BWL know you have these letters and you state this in a witness statement ... what is the problem
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Bakerbl
    • By Bakerbl 14th Jan 19, 8:31 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bakerbl
    Hi Mortski,

    I have a similar thread open after an LBC from BW Legal and Armtrac before Christmas for a residential property and holiday sub let. My PCN was issued very early in the morning like you. We should keep in touch. You need to go through the standard advice on these forums first of all - a SAR to Armtrac to get whatever photographic and other evidence they have and put a hold on the LBC stating you have carried out an SAR to Armtrac. Also in this case you should not be involved - this is an issue between owner landowner and PPC on what constitutes a genuine permit - point this out to them both (but get advice from the experts on this forum first).

    What does the letter of BW Legal give in it’s reason for claim? Usually it is just two or three words.

    With both Armtrac and BW Legal you are caught in an automated process where I think a human barely looks at responses (from my experience) and issues the next document on the list. Do make sure you respond to every letter from BW Legal from this point forward.

    Don’t be afraid of sending letters to the landowner stating the court proceedings are to be initiated and that you have already been bombarded with debt collectors letters etc.. Landowners can’t be allowed to feel they are immune from any consequences by hiring this company. If the landowner does not reply (like with my case) then make sure this is brought up if it goes to court. Also ask all parties landowner, Holiday owner, Armtrac for a copy of the Armtrac contract. Again, if no one complies then this should be noted.

    bakerbl.
    • Bakerbl
    • By Bakerbl 14th Jan 19, 8:35 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bakerbl
    Also I did not realise it was from October.

    5am in October? Maybe it looked different under the Armtrac staff’s torchlight?
    • Mortskii
    • By Mortskii 14th Jan 19, 7:30 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mortskii
    Hi Bakerbl

    Thanks for your comments. Yes it looks like we have similar issues so good to share advice/experiences. I have issue the SAR to Armtrac and now awaiting response. I will have my LBC rebuttal ready to go by the end of the week. Interesting to note that you feel that I should not be involved in the case and that the issue is between Armtrac, Landowner and holiday home owner as to what constitutes a valid permit - I hadn't considered this. Instead I am relying on written evidence from holiday home owner and Landowner that the permit was fully paid for, in date and fully valid. The only explanation I have had from Armtrac (from the initial appeal) is that the permit is a photocopy and not valid. Seems crazy to me that BW Legal will take this to court once they have the evidence but I will wait and see!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 19, 5:38 PM
    • 65,623 Posts
    • 78,172 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    In both your cases, if this was not a photocopied permit and/or Armtrac cannot produce evidence that it was photocopied, I would consider striking first and sending them a Letter Before Claim for the significant distress caused by misuse of your data, and demands for money and allegations of fraudulent use of a permit that are wholly unwarranted, defamatory and a breach of the Protection from Harassment Act.

    Cite the case of Ferguson v British Gas (Google and read it) and invite Armtrac to withdraw their defamatory and untrue allegation that this was a photocopied permit. Attach your evidence that it was not (email from the flat owner).

    Give Armtrac 21 days to reply (state that at the end, where you point the way ahead) and head the letter up Letter before Claim, with a sum (say, 500) you intend to claim if they fail to apologise for the slur and distress and withdraw the PCN within that time.

    500 would cost you only 35 up front if you used MCOL...

    https://www.compactlaw.co.uk/compactlaw-admin/court-fees.html

    In cases where a PPC clearly has no evidence and no case, I suggest a LBC to them, then a claim by the 'victim' is the way forward.

    IMHO it should have the desired effect if robust and well worded, and if not the issue the claim with our guidance about your grounds for seeking 500 for distress...

    Make sure you are both CERTAIN of your ground and that it wasn't a photocopy...
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-01-2019 at 5:41 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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