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    • cherryblossomzel
    • By cherryblossomzel 12th Jan 19, 7:01 PM
    • 497Posts
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    cherryblossomzel
    Chancel repair liability
    • #1
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:01 PM
    Chancel repair liability 12th Jan 19 at 7:01 PM
    A search has indicated that the property I'm buying has a potential chancel liability and they've included a quote. A 100,000 indemnity limit is quoted at 40. I was looking online to see if I could get a cheaper quote, but the providers I've found seems to only work through solicitors and not direct to the consumer. Is that how it works? Am I supposed to do this through my solicitors only? And also - is the limit of liability at all correlated with the sales price of the property?

    I thought I'd ask on here first, considering my solicitors in the first instance advised me not to get the search, and now there's a potential liability. I don't know what to think of that.
Page 1
    • martinthebandit
    • By martinthebandit 12th Jan 19, 7:12 PM
    • 3,814 Posts
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    martinthebandit
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:12 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:12 PM
    Before buying the insurance just check that the place you may potentially have liability on exists, we had similar but then discovered that the 'chapel' we may have had liability on had been sold and converted into a house some time ago.

    Secondly how many properties also have the same liability, it could be a thousand plus in which case I would suggest that 100 000 is more than enough.

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    remember you'll have less joy in your life


    ...but still have the same amount of snow!
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 12th Jan 19, 7:38 PM
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    da_rule
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:38 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:38 PM
    When did you seller buy the property? Is the chancel repair liability registered on the title register (if the property is registered)?

    Since October 2013, if a property is sold for variable considerarion and the church to which the liability relates has not registered the liability against the title then they are unable to register it or charge.
    • cherryblossomzel
    • By cherryblossomzel 12th Jan 19, 8:00 PM
    • 497 Posts
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    cherryblossomzel
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 8:00 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 8:00 PM
    Before buying the insurance just check that the place you may potentially have liability on exists, we had similar but then discovered that the 'chapel' we may have had liability on had been sold and converted into a house some time ago.

    Secondly how many properties also have the same liability, it could be a thousand plus in which case I would suggest that 100 000 is more than enough.
    Originally posted by martinthebandit
    The church is still in use as a church, and I believe the property used to belong to the church, but that was a long time ago.

    When did you seller buy the property? Is the chancel repair liability registered on the title register (if the property is registered)?
    Seller bought the place donkey's years ago, but I don't know if the liability is registered - do I find that on the land registry search?
    • Rosemary7391
    • By Rosemary7391 12th Jan 19, 8:08 PM
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    Rosemary7391
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 8:08 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 8:08 PM
    Repairs to large, listed buildings can be very expensive, and the church is probably both. Assuming everything else checks out, I wouldn't assume that 100,000 would be enough for all eventualities - find out what proportion of the total cost you might be liable for first. I have no idea how that might be worked out though.
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    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 12th Jan 19, 11:13 PM
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    dawyldthing
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:13 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:13 PM
    When I bought it I got the seller to pay it as part of the deal. I think it was about that amount thinking about it as it bounced back and forwards for a bit
    roll on 27th April 2019 or there abouts *34 done* = *6 to go*
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 12th Jan 19, 11:47 PM
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    bouicca21
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:47 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:47 PM
    If you read the chancel search letter carefully you will see that actually only says that there might be a liability. That is because they are simply telling you that your parish is listed in an index held by The National Archives at Kew. The appearance of a parish in that index does not mean there is a liability, it just means there is a relevant document. That document may say no liability. If it says there is a liablity then it will indicate the specific patch of land in the parish that carries the liability - the liability does not apply to the whole parish.



    Do your own check for less than a fiver. Follow the instructions here
    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/chancel-repair-liabilities-england-wales/



    If the document says there is no liability then you are home and dry. If it says there is one then you need to go to the next step and identify the bit of land in question by keying in a number on the document to a map. This is actually quite easy but involves a certain amount of time either looking at the relevant map at The National Archives or a copy held at your local record office.



    If the document specificaly mentions a liability on rectorial land then get the indemnity because rectorial land is particularly difficult to identify and it will definitely cost more to identify it than to get the indemnity.
    Last edited by bouicca21; 12-01-2019 at 11:50 PM. Reason: typo
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 13th Jan 19, 12:20 AM
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    Slithery
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:20 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:20 AM
    If it's only 40 then just do it.

    If you don't have that much spare cash when purchasing a property then you have far bigger issues...
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 13th Jan 19, 12:48 AM
    • 3,051 Posts
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    da_rule
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:48 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:48 AM
    Seller bought the place donkey's years ago, but I don't know if the liability is registered - do I find that on the land registry search?
    Originally posted by cherryblossomzel
    Yes. The risk is that the church has until the first transfer for value has occurred to register it. So if they somehow get wind of the sale they could make the application anytime between now and when you complete (assuming it’s not already registered).

    In terms of value of the insurance, you (your solicitor) will also have to see if your mortgage lender has a minimum level of cover that they require. This may have been the reason they advised you not to get the search, as now they will have to report on it to the lender which may cause further complications or require more in-depth searches.

    Usually it is the seller that provides indemnity insurance policies in a transaction. Although they can refuse and it becomes a choice between the buyer provides it or the deal falls through.

    You probably won’t find a company willing to deal with a consumer directly. Most of these specialist conveyancing indemnity policies will only deal with solicitors/conveyancers etc as some of the information they need can be quite detailed and specific and require interpretation of title documents etc. Also, again, your lender may not accept a policy that you sourced, as you have to remember that your solicitor is also working for your lender.
    Last edited by da_rule; 13-01-2019 at 12:53 AM.
    • cherryblossomzel
    • By cherryblossomzel 13th Jan 19, 9:27 AM
    • 497 Posts
    • 675 Thanks
    cherryblossomzel

    If you don't have that much spare cash when purchasing a property then you have far bigger issues...
    Originally posted by Slithery
    My concern is not about the cost. This is about being an informed consumer and not being led about by the nose by industries who depends on us sleepwalking our way through life.
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 13th Jan 19, 9:32 AM
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    Robin9
    The reality is that no church will ever seek to pursue Chancel Liability even it is absolutely certain of its case.

    These was a famous (or infamous) case a few years ago where a church did !
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 13th Jan 19, 1:45 PM
    • 4,237 Posts
    • 6,776 Thanks
    bouicca21
    The reality is that no church will ever seek to pursue Chancel Liability even it is absolutely certain of its case.

    These was a famous (or infamous) case a few years ago where a church did !
    Originally posted by Robin9
    Different dioceses have different policies. In the famous case it was the insurers who prompted the action. The enormous sums involved were almost all legal costs from fighting the case all the way up to the House of Lords. The owners knew they had a liability - it was on their deeds, plus the name of the property, Glebe Farm, was a pretty good indication that it was former Glebe land.

    The firms who run those checks have made a fortune from a combination of fear and the ignorance of solicitors, conveyancers and the public. My ex's vendors bought an indemnity even though I had carried out a proper search and proved that there was no liability. Conveyancers for the buyers of my mum's house were gobsmacked to learn that despite the parish being in the index, the actual document stated that liability had been extinguished by an enclosure act in 1816.

    A well known phrase or saying involving money and old rope comes to mind.
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 13th Jan 19, 1:53 PM
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    Robin9
    Other than the 2009 case can anyone name a Church which has sought to enforce a CRL ?
    Never pay on an estimated bill
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