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  • FIRST POST
    • doraappa
    • By doraappa 12th Jan 19, 11:15 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 3Thanks
    doraappa
    Should I have to accept the sofa back
    • #1
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:15 AM
    Should I have to accept the sofa back 12th Jan 19 at 11:15 AM
    Hi All

    Not sure where I stand on this.

    I sold my sofa on ebay 2 weeks back (used, collection with no return). The buyers mom was unwell so had to wait 2 week to get her to collect the item. The money was paid via paypal 2 weeks back. (Meanwhile I bought another sofa on ebay and paid for the transportation.)

    The old sofa was collected yesterday and the buyer was happy with it when she collected it.
    This morning the buyer complains that it smells of intensive spices and wants the sofa to return back. She says I did not mention that it requires intensive cleaning in the description during selling. I genuinely believe that's not the case, else I would have described it. I described that the cushions are washable.

    She says because of the smell, its not fit for purpose..Can she force me to take this back? I cant have 2 sofa and definitely cant afford to take it back. Please advice
Page 2
    • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    • By the_lunatic_is_in_my_head 12th Jan 19, 8:47 PM
    • 2,270 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    From the same webpage:



    So the buyer may get their money back by claiming INR or unauthorised transaction, but if the seller can prove they posted it, they have seller protection so paypal will stump up the refund. In this case, the seller cannot prove they posted it, so it is them who will stump up the refund, meaning they are without sofa OR money
    Originally posted by marcarm
    I was referring to your earlier post which was with regards to an item not received claim rather than a chargeback and my above post was correct in that regard.

    If they get a chargeback which is what you are now referring to the above you quote from Paypal is obviously correct.

    In this case the buyer is a business with a shop full of stock and would be foolish to try a chargeback and risk a small claims case against them.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 12th Jan 19, 9:04 PM
    • 955 Posts
    • 1,201 Thanks
    marcarm
    It works for both, the buyer can claim either INR or unauthorised, but the seller has protection if they can prove the item was posted.

    I think we are talking about the same thing, but it's just who funds the refund

    If they can prove, paypal will reimburse the buyer, if they cannot then the seller will have to fund the refund.

    I do agree the buyer would be foolish to try, but as you can see from the other recent new thread about the phone, if reading this stops one person from being scammed then it's worth it.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Jan 19, 11:08 PM
    • 13,125 Posts
    • 10,482 Thanks
    unholyangel
    It works for both, the buyer can claim either INR or unauthorised, but the seller has protection if they can prove the item was posted.

    I think we are talking about the same thing, but it's just who funds the refund

    If they can prove, paypal will reimburse the buyer, if they cannot then the seller will have to fund the refund.

    I do agree the buyer would be foolish to try, but as you can see from the other recent new thread about the phone, if reading this stops one person from being scammed then it's worth it.
    Originally posted by marcarm
    I think what lunatic is suggesting is that as it will be a chargeback dealt with by the originating bank, they are not limited to showing proof of delivery to defend against that chargeback claim - it is only paypals seller protection which relies on proof of delivery.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 13th Jan 19, 7:43 AM
    • 955 Posts
    • 1,201 Thanks
    marcarm
    I think they are referring to an eBay case, they might be closed on looking at the messages, but I am referring to a PayPal case.

    PayPal do not look at what messages, videos, letters, certificates, Morse code or semaphore. Seller protection is only granted with online proof of delivery.

    Anyway, this is now derailing the thread so I will bow out now
    • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    • By the_lunatic_is_in_my_head 13th Jan 19, 9:34 AM
    • 2,270 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    What I'm saying is there are three types of cases:

    1) The buyer may open a non-receipt request on eBay, if the seller has something in the eBay messages from the buyer showing they collected the item the seller may defend the claim

    2) The buyer may open a non-receipt case with Paypal, Buyer Protection does not cover collected items and the seller may defend the case

    3) The buyer may contact their card provider/bank and reverse the transaction, this is known as a chargeback which will open a case for unauthorised used in the Paypal resolution center. For this Paypal require proof of postage to defend such a claim under Seller Protection which a seller won't have for a collection sale.

    I am not suggesting people accept Paypal for collection items nor denying the risks of doing so but it is important to understand the distinction between the 3 above.

    To quote the original post I replied to again

    if she opened an item not received case in ebay, the ONLY thing paypal look at is online proof of delivery, without that the buyer is getting a refund.
    Originally posted by marcarm
    This is all 3 put together which boils down to an answer of no hope.

    Yes people will buy desirable things like phones and raise a chargeback, these people deliberately set out to steal the item.

    There are also amateurs, chancers and normal people who may be disappointed with the item and feel it's easy to claim non-receipt than go to the trouble of returning and these people may go down the route of options 1 or 2 above.

    MSE threads often come up in Google when people are looking for answers to problem and someone may stumble across a thread like this when they have an eBay or Payal INR case rather than a chargeback, assume there is no hope and lose their money when there may have been the option to defend the claim.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 13th Jan 19, 10:17 AM
    • 61,378 Posts
    • 43,954 Thanks
    soolin
    If you are a high spice eating household it may well smell of that.
    Ring and ask ebays advice on 0800 358 3229
    Originally posted by hollydays


    The best way to contact ebay is to log into your account and use the contact us system (try all variables regardless of how little they relate to your query) until you trigger the phone number of call back facility- both these are free. As it links via your account it is also faster and more direct. If they are busy the call back system is a good one as well.

    Going back to the problem, this could go several ways, many of which have been covered.

    As a private seller you do not have to offer a change of mind return, however buyer having stated an 'issue' with the item could trigger a 'not as described' complaint and private sellers are not immune to them.This probably wouldn't be an issue with cash on collection, but having accepted paypal here it rather clouds the issue.

    Normally on the ebay board we caution against fighting a SNAD claim as if buyer wins before seller refunds the item remains with buyer and seller may struggle to get it back. However in this case I think I would have a stab at defending it on the basis it was inspected and collected, however I would argue this on the phone and try and get the case closed in sellers favour rather than let it time out when basically a BOT just finds for the buyer automatically.

    The issues regarding a possible fraudulent or dodgy paypal claim have been covered. I agree that it might well be possible to defend an item not received claim (although it is not guaranteed) but would be nervous about any SNAD claim or unauthorised use of card claim both of which I fear the seller could lose. The SNAD claim though would be interesting as buyer would have to prove item was returned to seller before any refund would be made.

    I think with all the possible scenarios this is not a clear cut case at all.

    EDIT I have removed part of my post (it can be seen as it was quoted) as it is incorrect.
    Last edited by soolin; 16-01-2019 at 9:44 PM. Reason: Edited for incorrect advice.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 13th Jan 19, 10:50 AM
    • 16,667 Posts
    • 12,821 Thanks
    hollydays
    Sorry I do just need to pick up on this as it is wrong and not good advice on a money saving site!

    Do NOT use this number it looks as though it is one of the medium rate chargeable ones and as you get a long wait if you call 'cold' it could cost a lot of money!

    http://customerserviceshelps.co.uk/ebay-customer-service/

    The only safe and free way to contact ebay is to log into your account and use the contact us system (try all variables regardless of how little they relate to your query) until you trigger the phone number of call back facility- both these are free. As it links via your account it is also faster and more direct.

    Going back to the problem, this could go several ways, many of which have been covered.

    As a private seller you do not have to offer a change of mind return, however buyer having stated an 'issue' with the item could trigger a 'not as described' complaint and private sellers are not immune to them.This probably wouldn't be an issue with cash on collection, but having accepted paypal here it rather clouds the issue.

    Normally on the ebay board we caution against fighting a SNAD claim as if buyer wins before seller refunds the item remains with buyer and seller may struggle to get it back. However in this case I think I would have a stab at defending it on the basis it was inspected and collected, however I would argue this on the phone and try and get the case closed in sellers favour rather than let it time out when basically a BOT just finds for the buyer automatically.

    The issues regarding a possible fraudulent or dodgy paypal claim have been covered. I agree that it might well be possible to defend an item not received claim (although it is not guaranteed) but would be nervous about any SNAD claim or unauthorised use of card claim both of which I fear the seller could lose. The SNAD claim though would be interesting as buyer would have to prove item was returned to seller before any refund would be made.

    I think with all the possible scenarios this is not a clear cut case at all.
    Originally posted by soolin
    It's an 0800 freephone number

    It's free..
    • askmeaboutsofas
    • By askmeaboutsofas 14th Jan 19, 12:47 PM
    • 107 Posts
    • 80 Thanks
    askmeaboutsofas
    This is the weirdest thing. Why is the buyer offering to clean the sofa that she's also planning to return to you? Why wouldn't she want to keep it after going to the trouble of cleaning it?
    I would expect someone saying "I can clean this myself to remove the sell" would next be asking you for a partial refund to cover the cost/inconvenience of cleaning it themselves. Are you certain that's not what they're after?
    There is another alternative. They may have already steam cleaned it to remove the smell, and damaged the fabric while doing so. For that reason OP I would be inclined to refuse this offer of a free cleaning, or at least request photos showing it's condition now. You can do a lot of damage with a steam cleaner!


    Personally, if it was me selling a secondhand sofa, I would offer to accept the return on the basis that it's returned in the exact same condition as it left. If the buyer says she's already cleaned it I would tell them that I can't take it back as it's not in the same condition. You may have a fight on your hands if this goes to PayPal/eBay dispute, so make sure at every stage to communicate through eBay messages so that they have a record of what is happening. It's up to you to decide which is worth more - the sale price of the sofa, or your time, effort and potentially bad eBay feedback in dealing with this.
    Well informed on the subjects of sofas and wood furniture, and well opinionated on everything else
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 14th Jan 19, 2:50 PM
    • 26,651 Posts
    • 36,398 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    If they clean it and pretend to remove the ""smell"" the op won't have much of a leg to stand on as they can't prove there was not a smell to start with. Buyer being sneaky and has just changed mind imho.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 14th Jan 19, 11:19 PM
    • 13,125 Posts
    • 10,482 Thanks
    unholyangel
    If they clean it and pretend to remove the ""smell"" the op won't have much of a leg to stand on as they can't prove there was not a smell to start with. Buyer being sneaky and has just changed mind imho.
    Originally posted by peter_the_piper
    Its a private sale - it only needs to match its description. Therefore unless the description said "it doesn't smell of spices" then it matches its description.

    Then you have the issue that it is for the party alleging breach to prove their claim. Otherwise I could allege you owe me 20,000 for unpaid goods and you would have to prove you didn't.

    Even on the premise of it being a consumer contract and therefore requiring the goods to be of satisfactory quality:
    (4)The term mentioned in subsection (1) does not cover anything which makes the quality of the goods unsatisfactory—
    (a)which is specifically drawn to the consumer’s attention before the contract is made,
    (b)where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or
    (c)in the case of a contract to supply goods by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 15th Jan 19, 9:23 AM
    • 26,651 Posts
    • 36,398 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    I'm sure you are absolutely right legally but its Ebay and Paypal we are talking about here.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 16th Jan 19, 9:38 PM
    • 16,667 Posts
    • 12,821 Thanks
    hollydays
    Sorry I do just need to pick up on this as it is wrong and not good advice on a money saving site!

    Do NOT use this number it looks as though it is one of the medium rate chargeable ones and as you get a long wait if you call 'cold' it could cost a lot of money!

    http://customerserviceshelps.co.uk/ebay-customer-service/

    The only safe and free way to contact ebay is to log into your account and use the contact us system (try all variables regardless of how little they relate to your query) until you trigger the phone number of call back facility- both these are free. As it links via your account it is also faster and more direct.

    Going back to the problem, this could go several ways, many of which have been covered.

    As a private seller you do not have to offer a change of mind return, however buyer having stated an 'issue' with the item could trigger a 'not as described' complaint and private sellers are not immune to them.This probably wouldn't be an issue with cash on collection, but having accepted paypal here it rather clouds the issue.

    Normally on the ebay board we caution against fighting a SNAD claim as if buyer wins before seller refunds the item remains with buyer and seller may struggle to get it back. However in this case I think I would have a stab at defending it on the basis it was inspected and collected, however I would argue this on the phone and try and get the case closed in sellers favour rather than let it time out when basically a BOT just finds for the buyer automatically.

    The issues regarding a possible fraudulent or dodgy paypal claim have been covered. I agree that it might well be possible to defend an item not received claim (although it is not guaranteed) but would be nervous about any SNAD claim or unauthorised use of card claim both of which I fear the seller could lose. The SNAD claim though would be interesting as buyer would have to prove item was returned to seller before any refund would be made.

    I think with all the possible scenarios this is not a clear cut case at all.
    Originally posted by soolin
    Soolin, you need to change that bizarre claim you made .
    It is irresponsible to suggest to people that they may be charged for a freephone call.
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