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  • FIRST POST
    • doraappa
    • By doraappa 12th Jan 19, 11:15 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 3Thanks
    doraappa
    Should I have to accept the sofa back
    • #1
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:15 AM
    Should I have to accept the sofa back 12th Jan 19 at 11:15 AM
    Hi All

    Not sure where I stand on this.

    I sold my sofa on ebay 2 weeks back (used, collection with no return). The buyers mom was unwell so had to wait 2 week to get her to collect the item. The money was paid via paypal 2 weeks back. (Meanwhile I bought another sofa on ebay and paid for the transportation.)

    The old sofa was collected yesterday and the buyer was happy with it when she collected it.
    This morning the buyer complains that it smells of intensive spices and wants the sofa to return back. She says I did not mention that it requires intensive cleaning in the description during selling. I genuinely believe that's not the case, else I would have described it. I described that the cushions are washable.

    She says because of the smell, its not fit for purpose..Can she force me to take this back? I cant have 2 sofa and definitely cant afford to take it back. Please advice
Page 1
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 12th Jan 19, 11:20 AM
    • 16,664 Posts
    • 12,819 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:20 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:20 AM
    If you are a high spice eating household it may well smell of that.
    Ring and ask ebays advice on 0800 358 3229
    Last edited by hollydays; 12-01-2019 at 11:22 AM.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Jan 19, 11:52 AM
    • 13,119 Posts
    • 10,480 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:52 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:52 AM
    Providing you're a private individual selling old items you no longer need (and not acting as a retailer) then there is only 2 requirements.

    Those requirements are:
    1) that you must be able to pass title (ie have the right to sell the goods)
    2) that the goods must match their description

    Thats it - there are no requirements for it to be fit for purpose or of satisfactory quality (smells dont make goods not fit for purpose because their purpose is to be sat on).

    There is however the ebay money back guarantee to consider although I believe that (again) the goods would have to not match their description for the buyer to have a claim.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 12th Jan 19, 11:57 AM
    • 950 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    marcarm
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:57 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:57 AM
    Problem you have is that you have accepted Paypal for a collection item.

    If the buyer was so inclined, they can report they have not received the item, you will then lose the money AND have no sofa.

    To reduce the risk, it might be worth accepting it back, cleaning it and selling again, or refunding her the money to get it cleaned properly herself
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 12th Jan 19, 11:58 AM
    • 4,026 Posts
    • 10,845 Thanks
    LilElvis
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:58 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:58 AM
    Was her complaint today by phone or text/ e-mail? Did she sign anything to confirm collection? The only way I could see her winning a case with eBay or PayPal is if she lies and claims she never received the goods.

    If you don't currently have anything in writing confirming she has collected the sofa then send her an email through the eBay messaging system confirming that she had ample chance to check the item when she collected it. She's highly likely to reply, therefore giving you your proof of collection.
    Last edited by LilElvis; 12-01-2019 at 12:01 PM.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 12th Jan 19, 11:59 AM
    • 2,692 Posts
    • 3,568 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:59 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:59 AM
    Problem you have is that you have accepted Paypal for a collection item.

    If the buyer was so inclined, they can report they have not received the item, you will then lose the money AND have no sofa.

    To reduce the risk, it might be worth accepting it back, cleaning it and selling again, or refunding her the money to get it cleaned properly herself
    Originally posted by marcarm
    Yes, which is why it's best to accept cash for the sale rather than PayPal.
    • doraappa
    • By doraappa 12th Jan 19, 12:26 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    doraappa
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:26 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:26 PM
    Thanks all for your replies.

    The complaint was via email messages in ebay this morning. There is written confirmation in messages that the buyer collected item in the van. The buyer adds, the smell was so bad that she had to open the windows of her van yesterday (which makes me wonder why she has not brought straight back).

    She is also offering me to steam clean it if I take it back. The buyer says she has an antique shop where they sell old furniture and soft furnishings and hence she can offer to steam clean it.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    • 13,119 Posts
    • 10,480 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    Thanks all for your replies.

    The complaint was via email messages in ebay this morning. There is written confirmation in messages that the buyer collected item in the van. The buyer adds, the smell was so bad that she had to open the windows of her van yesterday (which makes me wonder why she has not brought straight back).

    She is also offering me to steam clean it if I take it back. The buyer says she has an antique shop where they sell old furniture and soft furnishings and hence she can offer to steam clean it.
    Originally posted by doraappa
    Shes a business buyer. She has even less rights - businesses are expected to carry out due diligence.

    Of course as I said above, theres still ebays guarantee to consider. You'd be better posting on the ebay board or contacting ebay themselves for advice on where you stand with that.

    If she already has the equipment to steam clean it.....why is she even attempting a return? She can clean it with no outlay expense!
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    • 950 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    marcarm
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:34 PM
    Thanks all for your replies.

    The complaint was via email messages in ebay this morning. There is written confirmation in messages that the buyer collected item in the van. The buyer adds, the smell was so bad that she had to open the windows of her van yesterday (which makes me wonder why she has not brought straight back).

    She is also offering me to steam clean it if I take it back. The buyer says she has an antique shop where they sell old furniture and soft furnishings and hence she can offer to steam clean it.
    Originally posted by doraappa
    Written confirmation means nothing, if she opened an item not received case in ebay, the ONLY thing paypal look at is online proof of delivery, without that the buyer is getting a refund.

    It is an old and well known scam, head down to the ebay board and there is a sticky about the dangers of accepting paypal for a collection item.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 12th Jan 19, 12:37 PM
    • 2,692 Posts
    • 3,568 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Why would she steam clean it for you? As a way of persuading you to take it back? How odd.

    I'd politely but firmly tell her you will not be taking it back or offering a refund. She had the chance to inspect (and smell) it when she collected it, it's not as if you posted it to her. She supposedly even smelt it on the way home. What's probably happened is that she's got it home and realised it doesn't fit, is the wrong colour or whatever and needs an excuse to ask for a refund.

    ETA: just seem she may be a business. Perhaps she had a buyer lined up for it who's pulled out?
    • doraappa
    • By doraappa 12th Jan 19, 1:04 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    doraappa
    The buyer said that the item was for her home but acknowledge that she has the old furniture and soft furnishings hence offering to make good the sofa for no charge.

    I called the ebay and the adviser says the buyer can return the item legally if it is due to smell or whatever reason and I cant stop it.

    Looks like I have to take the sofa back and put it back on ebay.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Jan 19, 1:14 PM
    • 13,119 Posts
    • 10,480 Thanks
    unholyangel
    The buyer said that the item was for her home but acknowledge that she has the old furniture and soft furnishings hence offering to make good the sofa for no charge.

    I called the ebay and the adviser says the buyer can return the item legally if it is due to smell or whatever reason and I cant stop it.

    Looks like I have to take the sofa back and put it back on ebay.
    Originally posted by doraappa
    Did you ask the adviser where this is covered in their T&C's? Advisers sometimes get mixed up and misapply correct information to the wrong circumstances. You can also only be bound by the terms you agreed to accept at the time of entering into the contract with them. So if its not in the T&C's you agreed to, they can't now impose it.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 12th Jan 19, 2:17 PM
    • 16,206 Posts
    • 22,314 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    The buyer said that the item was for her home but acknowledge that she has the old furniture and soft furnishings hence offering to make good the sofa for no charge.

    I called the ebay and the adviser says the buyer can return the item legally if it is due to smell or whatever reason and I cant stop it.

    Looks like I have to take the sofa back and put it back on ebay.
    Originally posted by doraappa
    I would accept the return as a good will gesture but state that the buyer needs to return it, as they should have rejected it upon collection if they weren't happy.

    Next time, sell on Facebook Marketplace where there are no fees and insist on cash on collection. Nice sofas seem to sell well on ours!
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • chili1496
    • By chili1496 12th Jan 19, 3:02 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    chili1496
    She says because of the smell, its not fit for purpose
    She going to sit on it or start munching it?
    • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    • By the_lunatic_is_in_my_head 12th Jan 19, 6:04 PM
    • 2,269 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    Written confirmation means nothing, if she opened an item not received case in ebay, the ONLY thing paypal look at is online proof of delivery, without that the buyer is getting a refund.

    It is an old and well known scam, head down to the ebay board and there is a sticky about the dangers of accepting paypal for a collection item.
    Originally posted by marcarm
    Paypal doesn't offer protection for collection items in the event of "non-receipt" (nor do they look at eBay cases).

    eBay does offer protection for non-receipt of collected items but will read the messages between the two parties and close the case where they can see the buyer has received the goods.
    Last edited by the_lunatic_is_in_my_head; 12-01-2019 at 6:06 PM.
    • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    • By the_lunatic_is_in_my_head 12th Jan 19, 6:06 PM
    • 2,269 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    Did you ask the adviser where this is covered in their T&C's? Advisers sometimes get mixed up and misapply correct information to the wrong circumstances. You can also only be bound by the terms you agreed to accept at the time of entering into the contract with them. So if its not in the T&C's you agreed to, they can't now impose it.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    This is eBay and they do what they like! Only option is what, small claims for losses but lose your account in the process.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 12th Jan 19, 6:15 PM
    • 950 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    marcarm
    Paypal doesn't offer protection for collection items in the event of "non-receipt" (nor do they look at eBay cases).

    eBay does offer protection for non-receipt of collected items but will read the messages between the two parties and close the case where they can see the buyer has received the goods.
    Originally posted by the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    I beg to differ, and looking at the sticky thread from our resident Ebay expert, she would differ also.

    PayPal on collection scam[/U]

    For PayPal seller protection items must be sent to the PayPal address that they confirm is 'OK to send to' and to defend an INR proof of delivery must be available on online. Therefore a scammer can pay by PayPal, collect and then claim Item Not Received (INR) and they will win the case. There is no alternative to proof of delivery , photographs, signed receipts etc are no good. For more information see the sticky postage thread.
    Even for a claim for fraudulent use of a card the seller protection only kicks in if seller can show proof of posting.
    by soolin
    My bolding.

    You can have whatever "proof" you like, videos, signed receipts, letters, ebay messages, but if there is no proof of delivery online, the seller will lose the case
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 12th Jan 19, 6:32 PM
    • 16,664 Posts
    • 12,819 Thanks
    hollydays
    The buyer said that the item was for her home but acknowledge that she has the old furniture and soft furnishings hence offering to make good the sofa for no charge.

    I called the ebay and the adviser says the buyer can return the item legally if it is due to smell or whatever reason and I cant stop it.

    Looks like I have to take the sofa back and put it back on ebay.
    Originally posted by doraappa
    How are you going to do that if it smells of cooking?
    • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    • By the_lunatic_is_in_my_head 12th Jan 19, 7:40 PM
    • 2,269 Posts
    • 1,348 Thanks
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    I beg to differ, and looking at the sticky thread from our resident Ebay expert, she would differ also.


    Originally posted by marcarm
    www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#r013

    13.4 Conditions for reimbursement

    Your purchase is an eligible purchase. Purchases of most goods and services are eligible (including travel tickets, intangible items such as rights of access to digital content and other licences), except for the following transactions:

    purchases of items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf (including at a retail point of sale) and which you claim to be Not Received;


    eBay will close cases where the buyer confirms receipt in the eBay messaging service, we've had at least 3 closed in the last 6 months on this basis.
    Last edited by the_lunatic_is_in_my_head; 12-01-2019 at 7:42 PM.
    • marcarm
    • By marcarm 12th Jan 19, 8:35 PM
    • 950 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    marcarm
    From the same webpage:

    11.1 What is PayPal seller protection?

    If you are the recipient of a payment made by a customer ("Payment Recipient"), we may reimburse you an amount for Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals made against you based on the following reasons:

    A Chargeback or Reversal was issued against you for the reason of an “Unauthorised Payment” (except for any “Unauthorised Payment” initiated in an environment not hosted by PayPal); or
    A Chargeback or Claim was issued against you for the reason of “Not Received”,
    where PayPal receives from you proof that the item was posted or delivered in accordance with the requirements set forth below, subject to the further provisions of this section 11 (including, without limitation, the Eligibility Requirements at section 11.6).
    So the buyer may get their money back by claiming INR or unauthorised transaction, but if the seller can prove they posted it, they have seller protection so paypal will stump up the refund. In this case, the seller cannot prove they posted it, so it is them who will stump up the refund, meaning they are without sofa OR money
    Last edited by marcarm; 12-01-2019 at 8:40 PM.
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