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  • FIRST POST
    • theiceking
    • By theiceking 11th Jan 19, 7:53 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    theiceking
    Pending debit card transaction in apps
    • #1
    • 11th Jan 19, 7:53 PM
    Pending debit card transaction in apps 11th Jan 19 at 7:53 PM
    Looking at a new bank that shows debit card transactions straight away with the retailer.

    i know Halifax does this, but Nationwide doesn't show the retailer. Any others that show straight away in the app?
Page 1
    • ozaz
    • By ozaz 11th Jan 19, 8:02 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    ozaz
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 8:02 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 8:02 PM
    Monzo and Starling are best for this.

    They treat pending transactions as having taken place and so also update your balance. They also provide better information on each transaction than other banks.
    • Cash-Strapped.T32
    • By Cash-Strapped.T32 11th Jan 19, 8:04 PM
    • 534 Posts
    • 304 Thanks
    Cash-Strapped.T32
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 8:04 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 8:04 PM
    Natwest have just recently started doing this in their app - like just in the past week recently.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 11th Jan 19, 9:00 PM
    • 1,061 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    • #4
    • 11th Jan 19, 9:00 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Jan 19, 9:00 PM
    Monzo and Starling are best for this.

    They treat pending transactions as having taken place and so also update your balance. They also provide better information on each transaction than other banks.
    Originally posted by ozaz
    If this is what Monzo and Starling do, it is especially good for them because they get the benefit of your money for the period of time between the transactions appearing as pending and actually clearing.

    Presumably, if they 'clear' a transaction whilst still pending and the transaction never actually gets cleared, they will credit your account at some point???

    What do they do with transactions at automated fuel dispensers (e.g. Tesco Pay@Pump) where the pending amount only shows as 1 until the true amount clears? Do you end up getting charged 1 plus the full transaction amount when the retailer clears it?

    How do they handle transactions where, say, a tip is added after a restaurant bill has been sent for Authorisation, or where a hotel/car hire company seeks approval for an estimated amount but then clears a slightly different amount?

    Worth remembering that no bank can guarantee to always show your transactions as soon as you make them unless the CHIP stipulates the card must always go online for Authorisation AND the Issuer is available to handle the Authorisation request.
    • ozaz
    • By ozaz 11th Jan 19, 10:14 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    ozaz
    • #5
    • 11th Jan 19, 10:14 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jan 19, 10:14 PM
    I only have experience with Monzo...

    Presumably, if they 'clear' a transaction whilst still pending and the transaction never actually gets cleared, they will credit your account at some point???
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    I can't remember the last time this happened to me, but I think what probably happens is your account gets credited and the original transaction gets removed from your list of transactions and it will be as if it never took place (as oppose to having both a debit and credit transaction).

    What do they do with transactions at automated fuel dispensers (e.g. Tesco Pay@Pump) where the pending amount only shows as 1 until the true amount clears? Do you end up getting charged 1 plus the full transaction amount when the retailer clears it?
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    My last one of those was over 6 months ago so again, can't quite remember. But looking back at the transaction it just appears now as a single transaction so I think these types of transactions just get updated when the final amount is known.

    I have had some active card check transactions for online stores/services where I have a debit transaction and then a separate credit transaction some time later but I suspect that's how they would appear at any bank.

    How do they handle transactions where, say, a tip is added after a restaurant bill has been sent for Authorisation, or where a hotel/car hire company seeks approval for an estimated amount but then clears a slightly different amount?
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    I've never put a hotel or car hire bill on my Monzo card. Would always use credit card for those.

    Tip taken after authorisation - I've not experienced this. Is this more typical abroad? I've not used Monzo abroad yet.

    Worth remembering that no bank can guarantee to always show your transactions as soon as you make them unless the CHIP stipulates the card must always go online for Authorisation AND the Issuer is available to handle the Authorisation request.
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    Yes, obviously the POS terminal has to be online. But in practice I hardly ever encounter POS terminals which aren't online these days. So virtually all my transactions are instantly debited. Not sure if that's because I'm city-based.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 11th Jan 19, 11:04 PM
    • 3,778 Posts
    • 2,322 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    • #6
    • 11th Jan 19, 11:04 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jan 19, 11:04 PM
    Nationwide shows pending - but why must you see the retailer?

    Do you not remember what you spent where?
    • EarthBoy
    • By EarthBoy 12th Jan 19, 12:00 AM
    • 2,101 Posts
    • 1,434 Thanks
    EarthBoy
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:00 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 19, 12:00 AM
    Barclays and Lloyds show the retailer on pending transactions.
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 12th Jan 19, 10:23 AM
    • 182 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    sausage_time
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 19, 10:23 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 19, 10:23 AM
    Natwest have just recently started doing this in their app - like just in the past week recently.
    Originally posted by Cash-Strapped.T32
    RBS too. Same platform probably.
    • scgf
    • By scgf 12th Jan 19, 11:51 AM
    • 382 Posts
    • 173 Thanks
    scgf
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:51 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 19, 11:51 AM
    Metro Bank shows pending transactions with retailer information.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 12th Jan 19, 2:50 PM
    • 1,061 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    Tip taken after authorisation - I've not experienced this. Is this more typical abroad? I've not used Monzo abroad yet.

    Yes, obviously the POS terminal has to be online. But in practice I hardly ever encounter POS terminals which aren't online these days. So virtually all my transactions are instantly debited. Not sure if that's because I'm city-based.
    Originally posted by ozaz
    Thanks for all the info. One small caveat to what follows, I am a dinosaur, many years out of the cards industry, so there may have been changes that nullify what I say.

    The practice of tipping by card and how they are added will have changed over the years (especially now the telephone is rarely - if ever - used to seek authorisation) such that the scenario I mentioned is unlikely. However, Card Scheme rules did used to make provision for it by allowing a cleared transaction to be up to 20% more than the authorised amount to allow for tips added later.

    The same sort of thing applies to hotel/car rentals where a 'pre-auth' will be allowed to 'stand' for a later cleared transaction with a different amount. If that does happen, possibly the biggest issue will be with Monzo matching the auth for one amount with the cleared transaction for a different amount. It is just conceivable that Monzo would allow both auth and clearing messages to be debited - unless there is some Tran ID in the auth that also accompanies the clearing message - the CHIP cryptogram perhaps?

    The online/offline issue is more likely to be a factor where either the retailer has a comms failure or the card issuer has a similar issue. The card schemes can stand-in and authorise on the issuer's behalf (according to issuer-specified parameters) but that approval would still not reach the account if the issuer's comms are down.

    These may seem like small issues that are hardly likely to happen, but they will and the new entrants to the market may not have factored them in to their processing and might get tripped up one day; we will then see threads banging on about how a hotel charged my Monzo card for 120 and also for 145 when I only stayed for one night - what should I do?
    • ozaz
    • By ozaz 12th Jan 19, 3:31 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    ozaz
    The same sort of thing applies to hotel/car rentals where a 'pre-auth' will be allowed to 'stand' for a later cleared transaction with a different amount. If that does happen, possibly the biggest issue will be with Monzo matching the auth for one amount with the cleared transaction for a different amount. It is just conceivable that Monzo would allow both auth and clearing messages to be debited
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    Yes - it seems this does happen - as discussed on Monzo's community
    https://community.monzo.com/t/when-pre-authorisation-is-not-pre-authorisation/48119

    But it sounds like the issue is the same with any bank. If this happened with traditional banks your 'available balance' (amount available to spend) would also be effected by both transactions until the pre-authorised transaction is removed. Monzo just treats your available balance as your actual balance. The idea being it makes it easier for the customer to stay on top of their money if they just have a single balance and if pending transactions show up as actual transactions. Potential concern with Monzo here is if it causes you to go overdrawn. But they don't charge overdraft fees if overdrawn due to uncleared pending transaction.

    I'd never encountered the double charging issue before because I would always use my credit card at hotels and car hire places, and any transaction over 100 for that matter.

    There's also a thread on the pay at pump behaviour if interested
    https://community.monzo.com/t/pending-transactions-buying-fuel-at-pump/53548
    Last edited by ozaz; 12-01-2019 at 3:34 PM.
    • gt94sss2
    • By gt94sss2 12th Jan 19, 4:47 PM
    • 4,220 Posts
    • 1,997 Thanks
    gt94sss2
    You can also try Curve where the app shows transactions immediately and then charges whatever bank card(s) or credit card(s) you link to it.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 12th Jan 19, 8:24 PM
    • 1,061 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    Yes - it seems this does happen - as discussed on Monzo's community
    https://community.monzo.com/t/when-pre-authorisation-is-not-pre-authorisation/48119

    But it sounds like the issue is the same with any bank. If this happened with traditional banks your 'available balance' (amount available to spend) would also be effected by both transactions until the pre-authorised transaction is removed. Monzo just treats your available balance as your actual balance. The idea being it makes it easier for the customer to stay on top of their money if they just have a single balance and if pending transactions show up as actual transactions. Potential concern with Monzo here is if it causes you to go overdrawn. But they don't charge overdraft fees if overdrawn due to uncleared pending transaction.
    Originally posted by ozaz
    Understood and thanks for the steer to the Monzo community. I'm glad to see I wasn't imagining a problem with this processing model and I recall quite clearly discussions back in the 1990s (when I was still in cards) about the difficulties of matching Authorisation Messages to Clearing Messages when the amounts differed.

    However, if differing amounts mean a bank 'takes' your funds at both the pending and clearing stages, customers unaware of why that has happened may feel compelled to have a go at the retailer and thence at the bank before they get it sorted. The traditional two-stage method may affect the available balance in the same manner but doesn't carry the risk of overdraft - albeit fee-free - which might impact on your credit history(?).

    But the real killer for me is the fact that Monzo now looks to me to be not fully developed or thought out and this makes them look unprofessional. Perhaps they need a few dinosaurs working for them to point out these things before they happen.

    I also like the euphemistic way they have marketed their approach as making it easier for customers to manage their money, when the real truth is that it enables Monzo to utilise the value of those transactions before they actually have to surrender the physical cash to the retailer-side of the transaction.
    • No_6
    • By No_6 12th Jan 19, 9:10 PM
    • 814 Posts
    • 158 Thanks
    No_6
    Just pay with a credit card, that will pay you for you spends
    then have another 50 or ? days to PAY

    earn money...…people
    • ozaz
    • By ozaz 12th Jan 19, 9:21 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    ozaz
    The traditional two-stage method may affect the available balance in the same manner but doesn't carry the risk of overdraft - albeit fee-free - which might impact on your credit history(?).
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    Re potential impact on credit history. I'm not sure, but suspect not. I suspect they use cleared balance behind the scenes and for both overdraft charging and reporting purposes, with available balance for the single balance displayed to customers in the app. But would have to check.

    But the real killer for me is the fact that Monzo now looks to me to be not fully developed or thought out and this makes them look unprofessional. Perhaps they need a few dinosaurs working for them to point out these things before they happen.
    This probably comes down to personal preference. I would hate it if they went to the 2-stage approach of traditional banks (and in fact would stop using them and switch to a different bank such as Starling or N26 which also eschews the 2-stage approach). It is the instant balance updating coupled with rich transaction information which attracted me to Monzo in the first place, and these are still the most appealing elements for me. Suspect that's similar for a lot of their customers.

    I also like the euphemistic way they have marketed their approach as making it easier for customers to manage their money, when the real truth is that it enables Monzo to utilise the value of those transactions before they actually have to surrender the physical cash to the retailer-side of the transaction.
    Whether or not they benefit seems speculative to me. Behind the scenes they may well be operating exactly the same as other banks (perhaps regulation dictates this?) and at a superficial level just presenting information to customers in a different way. In fact, you can see which transactions are in reality pending in the background by clicking on a transaction in the app to see further details about it. But in any case, it makes no difference to me if they do benefit. I would rather consider the money spent as soon as I have made a transaction.
    Last edited by ozaz; 12-01-2019 at 9:26 PM.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 13th Jan 19, 12:53 PM
    • 1,061 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    Thanks, ozaz, I appreciate your reasoning.
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