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  • FIRST POST
    • GrigglyWiggly
    • By GrigglyWiggly 11th Jan 19, 1:02 PM
    • 2Posts
    • 0Thanks
    GrigglyWiggly
    Do I pay or keep going...?
    • #1
    • 11th Jan 19, 1:02 PM
    Do I pay or keep going...? 11th Jan 19 at 1:02 PM
    Hi,

    I Hope I've followed the rules. I've read the advice and used the template appeal and have now received the appeal rejection

    Our car was parked in a parking space for about 10 mins, whilst we returned a product to the shop. The car was parked directly in front of the shop in what was thought to be a drop off point. We went directly to the shop, then straight back to the car. Then left.
    We did not see the signs nor did we know it was a pay and display. We have a return receipt from the shop for the date in question.

    We received the NTK from Napier for 90 (50 if paid within 14 days), so appealed.

    We've taken pictures of the signs - and these state we can get a yellow ticket for 1hr free parking if we're using the shop that we returned our product to. Obviously, had we have seen the sign and knew it was pay and display, we would have got a free yellow ticket!

    I've complained to the retail store, but they've said they don't own the land on which Napier operate. I'm going to email my MP next. I can't find who owns the land? I've tried the land registry.

    Here's the main part of the rejection letter.

    ************************************************** *******
    Re: Fixed Charge Notice Number XXX (Vehicle: XXX)
    Site: XXX
    Issue Date/Time: 08/01/2019 11:18
    Contravention: Failure to clearly display a valid ticket/permit.

    Thank you for your appeal received on 11/01/2019 regarding the above detailed Fixed Charge Notice
    (FCN). We have reviewed the case and considered the comments that you have made, together with
    the evidence that we are holding. Our records show that the notice was correctly issued as your vehicle
    was parked in breach of the clearly displayed Terms and Conditions of Parking.
    We do not need to know the drivers ID as we have served our Notice in accordance with POFA 2012
    so we can invoke keeper liability once certain conditions are met.
    All photographs taken of the vehicle are attached.
    The vehicle was not displaying a valid ticket for the duration that it was parked. It is the drivers
    responsibility to take the time to park correctly, the signs make it clear that a Fixed Charge Notice may
    be issued if you fail to comply.
    We are therefore unable to cancel the Fixed Charge Notice as it was issued correctly. Your options now
    are as follows;
    - Pay the Fixed Charge Notice at the rate of 50 by 25/01/2019. We must advise you that once this
    settlement rate passes it may not be offered again or further extended. If 14 days passes the full
    amount of 90 is payable by 08/02/2019. Payment options are contained later in this document.
    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.
    PLEASE DO NOT PAY THE CHARGE IF YOU WISH TO APPEAL FURTHER. PAYMENTS ARE
    ACCEPTED IN FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT.
    - Make an appeal to the IAS - The Independent Appeals Service (XX) provides an
    Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal
    appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing
    you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.
    PLEASE NOTE that if you wish to appeal to the IAS, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the
    discounted settlement rate (if a discounted settlement rate has been re-offered), and should your
    appeal be rejected by the IAS you will be required to pay the FULL charge.

    If you choose to do nothing we will take further action to collect the full charge of 90 via our debt
    recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action. We will also seek our additional charges/costs
    incurred in collecting the payment.
    Yours sincerely,
    Enforcement Department
    Napier Parking Ltd.
    ************************************************** ************************************************

    The most concerning part in their letter states that we'll be liable for additional costs should they choose to take it to court. They also state they don't need to know the driver?

    So....do we have a case, or do we just pay the 50 and put it down to life experience!
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Jan 19, 1:18 PM
    • 11,443 Posts
    • 11,496 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 1:18 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Jan 19, 1:18 PM
    Pay or not, that is a decision for you to make after reading the stickies and some of the other posts in which Napier was involved.

    IMO you should fight as, if this went to court, I believe that a judge would be likely to find in your favour. Whatever you decide please complain to your MP as it is the will of Parliament that these scammers be put out of business.

    Hopefully that will take place in the near future. The Bill has passed through the HOC without hitch, and goes to the Lords soon. In the meantime involve your MP, the poor dears are buckling under the weight of complaints about these scammers.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

    Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Third Reading in late November, and, with a fair wind, will become Law next year.

    All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.


    as Napier appear not to have applied grace periods, you were using the car park while attending one of the shops, they have suffered no loss., h
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 11th Jan 19, 1:42 PM
    • 515 Posts
    • 679 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 1:42 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Jan 19, 1:42 PM
    As the deep has said you can pay or ignore, those are the only choices currently, do not bother appealing to the IAS, that organization are scammers set up only to support its members and appealing to them could actually do you more harm than good should it go to Court, the parking scumbags would use your 100% rejection from the IAS to potentially strengthen their case against you.


    Read the NEWBIES section to find out more about the game you are now involved in and to find out more about your choices and how to go about fighting them if of course you choose that route.


    Whatever you decide to do DO NOT!!! be frightened into paying by letters with scary red writing on them by the likes of DRP, Zenith and other scummy parasite debt collectors, they have no powers whatsoever and cannot take you to Court, only the parking scammer can do that.
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 19, 1:51 AM
    • 65,499 Posts
    • 78,051 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 1:51 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 19, 1:51 AM
    The most concerning part in their letter states that we'll be liable for additional costs should they choose to take it to court.
    But this is covered already in every other thread about court claims and pre-court letters. They cannot double claim, and the only addition would be about fifty quid for court fees and a couple of pounds interest. So 140 instead of 90 if you were a very rare losing defendant (we win 99% of cases here).

    Have you read other Napier threads? They use BW Legal and are defendable as the evidence & process is always diabolical from BW Legal. We beat them repeatedly.

    They also state they don't need to know the driver?
    Why the question mark? This is all covered in the NEWBIES thread with a link to the POFA 2012 for newbies to read about 'keeper liability'. All basic stuff in the sticky thread.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-01-2019 at 1:54 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • GrigglyWiggly
    • By GrigglyWiggly 12th Jan 19, 7:34 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    GrigglyWiggly
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:34 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:34 PM
    Thanks (not) Coupon-mad for your 'advice'. I guess this isn't really a forum....more of a resource library with soap-box attendants who, rather than share their experience, instead get all high and mighty with their copy-pasting and criticise other members for not spending hours reading every last detail of a subject they're inexperience in and asking for help!
    I feel proud that I don't act this way toward other members in the other forums I'm involved in.

    Anyways, from that I've found out (not on this 'forum' i might add). Is the following:

    About 60% of appeals are won...not the 99% claimed here.
    POFA 2012 has been satisfied by Napier.
    There is no grace period of privately owned carparks at the beginning of parking, only at the end - after ticket expiry.
    Fair losses / unrecovered losses etc... is nonsense - especially when it's a privately run carpark.

    So - I will pay the 50. Why.....?

    I don't have to return to this forum and be chastised for not finding every small detail.
    I will not have to waste my time reading copy paste replies about MPs
    It's two hours work. Far less than the time I'd need to spend on this forum to fight every step.
    I will not have to deal with the stress of waiting for more letters, CCJs etc..

    I will now go back to my other forums, where experienced members offer help, regardless of how many times the same question has been asked. After all, if the information is readily available - why send your fellow members clues and a treasure hunt?

    Thanks to those posters who's threads I've read that share genuine help.

    Such a shame. I guess the parking companies will be around a lot longer as forums like this simply encourage people like me to just pay and move on with more important things in life.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 19, 7:42 PM
    • 65,499 Posts
    • 78,051 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:42 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 19, 7:42 PM
    About 60% of appeals are won...not the 99% claimed here.
    99% are won by posters here with people like me, and other regulars, helping.

    60% might well be true across the board, including hopeless defences from the public (sadly).

    Not true here. We almost never see a case lost because we know what we are doing.

    My post was intended to point you in the right direction to see how to defend it.

    There is no grace period of privately owned carparks at the beginning of parking, only at the end - after ticket expiry.
    Not true. Where did you read that?

    There is certainly an observation period to read signs & decide whether to stay or go.

    Fair losses / unrecovered losses etc... is nonsense - especially when it's a privately run carpark.
    Yes, agreed, since the Beavis case in 2015. So we never mention 'loss' in our defences.

    After all, if the information is readily available - why send your fellow members clues and a treasure hunt?
    Because a couple of years ago this forum nearly drowned in such questions which we can't handle one by one, hence the NEWBIES thread is where to look first, and it's not a hunt as my signature tells you exactly where to click (if I could add a link to my sig, I would).

    We can't explain everything about keeper liability and defences, one by one, we would fold and the resource would be lost. 99% win rate shows it works.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-01-2019 at 7:49 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 13th Jan 19, 10:40 AM
    • 3,681 Posts
    • 2,707 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:40 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 19, 10:40 AM
    Thanks (not) Coupon-mad for your 'advice'. I guess this isn't really a forum....more of a resource library with soap-box attendants who, rather than share their experience, instead get all high and mighty with their copy-pasting and criticise other members for not spending hours reading every last detail of a subject they're inexperience in and asking for help!
    Originally posted by GrigglyWiggly
    Another good way to get help and guidance is to do the opposite of what you have done (and exactly what you claim C-m has done) and be grateful that you receive the help - even if it is pointers to where the help and guidance is available.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jan 19, 12:28 PM
    • 11,443 Posts
    • 11,496 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:28 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:28 PM
    It's two hours work. Far less than the time I'd need to spend on this forum to fight every step.

    I agree, but are you familiar with Pastor Neimoller's poem? Some of us feel that this is worth fighting for.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • steve1500
    • By steve1500 13th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    • 1,157 Posts
    • 792 Thanks
    steve1500
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    Thanks (not)

    So - I will pay the 50. Why.....?

    I don't have to return to this forum and be chastised for not finding every small detail.
    I.
    Originally posted by GrigglyWiggly

    A fool & their money


    CM where do you want the Andrex sending
    Last edited by steve1500; 13-01-2019 at 4:31 PM.
    Private Parking Tickets - Make sure you put your Subject Access Request in after 25th May 2018 - It's free & ask for everything, don't forget the DVLA
    • Parkingfines
    • By Parkingfines 13th Jan 19, 4:11 PM
    • 85 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    Parkingfines
    If people wish to throw thier money away let them
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Jan 19, 4:22 PM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 86,317 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Methinks someone wanted spoon feeding instead of doing their homework.

    Money down the drain to further fund and perpetuate the scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 19, 4:30 PM
    • 21,292 Posts
    • 33,514 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'm sure the de Savary family will be most grateful for your 50 quid.

    https://companycheck.co.uk/director/914778997/MR-JAMES-NICHOLAS-JOHN-DE-SAVARY/summary

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06009471/officers
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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