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  • FIRST POST
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 11th Jan 19, 12:43 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 19Thanks
    sellwin90
    Parking "fine" - court letter
    • #1
    • 11th Jan 19, 12:43 PM
    Parking "fine" - court letter 11th Jan 19 at 12:43 PM
    Hi all,

    After receiving a parking fine from Britannia Parking back in 2017, I was lead to this site and forums and after reading countless threads and advice, I didn't pay my "fine".

    Months passed, kept receiving letters, kept coming here to read and kept ignoring.

    This morning, I have just received this letter (attached) and I'm now panicking a bit. Any advice please? There is more to the letter, attached is only the first page.... OK I'm not allowed to post attachments or links as I'm a new poster, not sure when this will be changed but the letter is a claim form from the county court business centre with a claim number.

    Thanks
Page 3
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 19, 12:17 AM
    • 68,551 Posts
    • 80,769 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Please reply with the next full draft defence for review, not piecemeal sections of it.

    Easier for us to see what you are now intending to file.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 19, 5:35 PM
    • 21,800 Posts
    • 27,399 Thanks
    Redx
    more info and advice for you to read


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5881944&page=2


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5939998


    should help you form your bespoke defence
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • lynneholmes
    • By lynneholmes 13th Jan 19, 6:29 PM
    • 3 Posts
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    lynneholmes
    I received a parking charge notice the other day even though I bought a ticket and left within the time on the ticket. What I didnít know was about any time allotted for finding a space. I had to wait about 15 minutes to get a space, just before Christmas and did not know this. This does not seem to be in any of the signage.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 19, 6:31 PM
    • 21,800 Posts
    • 27,399 Thanks
    Redx
    it will be in the code of practice

    please post a NEW THREAD and name the parking company involved

    download and read the CoP

    and please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread at the top of this forum

    if you need further help, we will do so in your own thread, not this one

    thanks
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • lynneholmes
    • By lynneholmes 13th Jan 19, 6:32 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    lynneholmes
    Miss Holmes
    Hi, I received a parking charge notice from Premier Parking Solutions even though I bought a ticket. I had to wait about 12-15 minutes for a space as it was so busy everywhere in the Christmas period. I didnít know that there was a charge even before one finds a space. This doesnt seem to say anything on the signage.
    How have you got on?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 19, 6:34 PM
    • 21,800 Posts
    • 27,399 Thanks
    Redx
    this thread is an ongoing court case and hasnt got there yet

    please use the NEW THREAD BUTTON near the top left of this forum, post your queries in that NEW THREAD

    thank you
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • lynneholmes
    • By lynneholmes 13th Jan 19, 6:35 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    lynneholmes
    Let me know how you get on. I’m just realising that they are counting my waiting for a car parking space in the parking charge claim. But they don’t say this on the letter. They just say I haven’t paid and I clearly had a parking ticket placed on the dashboard - and I sent this to the appeal.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 19, 6:36 PM
    • 21,800 Posts
    • 27,399 Thanks
    Redx
    this court case wont be over for several months


    and its BRITANNIA PARKING , not Premier Parking Solutions
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 19, 6:38 PM
    • 22,442 Posts
    • 35,328 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    @lynneholmes - please don't deflect this thread as it's approaching a crucial point in proceedings. Tangential questioning is likely to cause confusion.

    If you wish to discuss things with the OP, please PM them off forum. If you want help with your own case, follow Redx's advice above.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 16th Jan 19, 10:44 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    Sorry not replied - been busy at work. Will have a look through the links provided and more advice given then post an updated defence in due course. Thanks
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 16th Jan 19, 10:48 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    Oh, and this morning I received a further letter from BW legal saying about the court claim issued and the fine amount. The amount is broken down again, going from one of my earlier posts of the breakdown from the court and someone saying it is illegal what they have requested, it's actually a different breakdown:

    Principal debt: £x
    Interest: £x
    Court fees: £x
    Solicitors cost £x

    In my initial defence I have stated that they are requesting the money twice but it doesn't seem that way, unless requesting solicitor fees is not allowed?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jan 19, 10:52 PM
    • 68,551 Posts
    • 80,769 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    unless requesting solicitor fees is not allowed?
    It's not allowed unless it was actually paid for legal advice/action. You'd be surprised, don't assume it has been.

    And the principal debt can't add sixty quid that wasn't paid to anyone either.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Jan 19, 10:58 PM
    • 13,592 Posts
    • 14,814 Thanks
    KeithP
    Please re-read the second part of post #30.

    You need to edit post #29 accordingly.
    .
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 16th Jan 19, 11:28 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    Please re-read the second part of post #30.

    You need to edit post #29 accordingly.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Done I think
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 16th Jan 19, 11:48 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    Couple of questions.

    From one of the links above, should this be my closing statement: "For the reasons stated above, the Court is invited to dismiss this Claim in its entirety, and to award the Defendant such witness costs for attendance at trial as are permissible pursuant to CPR 27.14."

    Should I remove that the driver left within the grace period offered at the end of the ticket, because of the good Samaritan bit within my defence (I appreciate that we said this can be removed later if no SAR is received in time, but I think it unlikely that the driver left within the grace period). OR should the good Samaritan bit just be left out altogether

    And how do you find out about the authority of the land. It's off of the main road, in a car park, so is this enough "proof" for them to claim it's private land. I only ask as I found this on a separate website and a car park to me seems like it comes under "part b":
    The car park was on “relevant land”. Relevant land is defined as private land and specifically excludes the following land:
    (a) a public highway
    (b) a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority
    (c) any other land where parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control (such as airports and railway stations which are covered by byelaws).

    I will post an updated version tomorrow
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jan 19, 11:55 PM
    • 68,551 Posts
    • 80,769 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Should I remove that the driver left within the grace period offered at the end of the ticket, because of the good Samaritan bit within my defence (I appreciate that we said this can be removed later if no SAR is received in time, but I think it unlikely that the driver left within the grace period). OR should the good Samaritan bit just be left out altogether
    I think these facts, if known once you get more info, can wait until Witness Statement stage. No need for this level of 'what happened' commentary in the defence.

    To find out who owns private land, ask the local authority who pays the non-domestic rates for that site. Should be public information the Council can supply.

    If not, try Land Registry for £3.50 or so.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 17th Jan 19, 12:17 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    Will get onto the local authority tomorrow. In the meantime, here's my latest defence with the good samaritan bit left out for the time being..

    CLAIM No: xxxxx

    BETWEEN:

    BRITANNIA PARKING (Claimant)

    -and-

    xxxxx (Defendant)

    ________________________________________
    DEFENCE
    ________________________________________

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration xxxxxx, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on the material date in a marked bay allocated to Company BRITANNIA PARKING at Lambhay Car Park, Plymouth, and had a valid ticket to be parked in that bay.

    3. To the best of the drivers knowledge, they fully complied with the car park rules by entering the vehicle registration number and purchasing a ticket within the initial grace period allowed by the British Parking Assoication’s (BPA) Code of Practice (CoP) and left within the minimum 10 minutes grace period allowed by the BPA CoP at the end of the parking period.

    4. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.

    5. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. The POC is inadequate as it does not provide any hint as to what rule the driver is alleged to have breached. It is denied that the Defendant, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct, however any driver of the vehicle did, as a ticket was purchased.

    6. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

    7. The lighting surrounding multiple signs in the Claimant’s car park is insufficient. The lighting over the tariffs board is intermittent and flickers. In addition to this, the outer box which highlights the tariffs provides a shadow underneath making it even more difficult to read the particulars when the light is in it’s “on” stage of the flickering. This is not confirming to the British Parking Associations, Code of Practice, nor the rules that were issued after the outcome of the “ParkingEye V Barry Beavis” case.

    8. a) The Claimant has failed the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so the defendant is not liable under the POFA 2012.
    b) The Defendant believes that the Claimant has not followed the correct procedures outlined in the Protecion of Freedoms Act 2012 by identifying who the driver of the vehicle was and therefore the Defendant, as keeper, is not liable for the charge.
    c) The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £85. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery - verging on, in my opinion, an attempt to fraud the Defendant into paying extra.

    9. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient prorpietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    10. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    Last edited by sellwin90; 17-01-2019 at 12:44 AM. Reason: Added in point 9
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jan 19, 12:28 AM
    • 68,551 Posts
    • 80,769 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    This is not confirming to the British Parking Associations, Code of Practice,
    'Conforming' and you need an apostrophe in Association's or just put the 'British Parking Association Code of Practice'.

    I didn't see the usual point about the C have no standing/authority from the landowner, as seen in most defences.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 17th Jan 19, 12:36 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90
    I hadn't put that in because I have no proof about it, hence why I was going to call the local authority tomorrow. Or should I just put it in and make them prove it?
    • sellwin90
    • By sellwin90 17th Jan 19, 12:43 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sellwin90

    I didn't see the usual point about the C have no standing/authority from the landowner, as seen in most defences.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    7. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    I have added this paragraph from Bargepoles original. Will edit previous post to show
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