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  • FIRST POST
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 8th Jan 19, 7:40 PM
    • 33Posts
    • 24Thanks
    Whatapain
    11 Indigo PCNs
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 19, 7:40 PM
    11 Indigo PCNs 8th Jan 19 at 7:40 PM
    Hello everyone, great forum indeed.

    The short: I have parked a courtesy car at a local station and paid using connect cashless parlking back in November. At the end of November the garage sent me 5 scanned PCNs from Indigo that the leasing company (their courtesy cars provider) had sent them. I appealed through Indigo website link and designated myself as the driver (only read Newbie FAQ afterwards). PCN uphold, reason : ę!parking receipts show carís make and not registration!Ľ. Not sure why. My personal account on Connect cashless website shows all details including registration, but it is possible that carís make and registration may have been inverted as only make shows when I try to retrieve receipts. Connect cashless belongs to Indigo and surely content of my personal account should be linked to app even if make/registration were inverted somehow. Today same happened again with another email from leasing company to garage, with another 6 PCNs, I canít even appeal to as their arbitrary date has gone past (dated december 7th all 6 of them and only got them today). ZZZ already sent 11 threatening letters even before the end of time windows ďofferedĒ after appeal rejected for initial ones I was able to appeal. Rather lost at this stage, not sure what to do next, suspect they will bother going all the way to SCC with 11 PCNs, all of them linked to the same issue on the payment app, which one can not do anytihing about as unaware until one gets a bunch of PCNs at the same time. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks!
Page 3
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Jan 19, 9:53 PM
    • 2,761 Posts
    • 3,446 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    ital home page saying they do penalty notices/railway https://www.asparking.co.uk/

    then click on faqs , and go to "what happens if my appeal is rejected , and read
    https://www.asparking.co.uk/Faq


    i think the bpa should have that fowarded to them
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 12th Jan 19, 9:57 PM
    • 161 Posts
    • 327 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    Itís because ITAL have lifted their FAQs page, here:
    https://www.asparking.co.uk/Faq
    directly from Indigoís, here:
    https://uk.parkindigo.com/en/faq
    (which was written before the BPA said independent appeals must be reinstated).

    So much for independence!
    Last edited by Handbags-at-dawn; 12-01-2019 at 9:59 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 19, 9:57 PM
    • 65,507 Posts
    • 78,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Watch them scurry to edit that website again...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Jan 19, 10:00 PM
    • 2,761 Posts
    • 3,446 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    Itís because ITAL have lifted their FAQs page, here:
    https://www.asparking.co.uk/Faq
    directly from Indigoís, here:
    https://uk.parkindigo.com/en/faq
    (which was written before the BPA said independent appeals must be reinstated).

    So much for independence!
    Originally posted by Handbags-at-dawn

    yup with one small edit

    Should you remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to the Parking On Private Land Appeal service (POPLA) within 28 days of receiving your rejection letter. Details of this are available at www.popla.co.uk.

    Youíll be issued with a 10 digit verification code, which you must use with your appeal to POPLA. This is shown at the top of your rejection letter.

    The POPLA process does not apply in Scotland or to PNís (Penalty Notices) received at a railway station car park.
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 13th Jan 19, 8:02 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    So back to original question when appeal to ITAL - if I can - and then by post to 6 PCNs that I received to late to appeal on line, do I :

    1. State I was the driver with name + address?
    2. Explain the real reason i.e their app does not work and as one can not enter a new vehicule to pay for parking, even if make and reg are inverted, all info should be accessible to them, and if it does not, it is their issue not mine?

    Quite “amusing” as reasons for appeal probably do not matter as they will reject and so will ITAL who is clearly not very agnostic and independent at all, and their only goal is to scare people off into paying their made up fake and arbitrary so called penalties.


    Thanks!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 19, 5:41 PM
    • 65,507 Posts
    • 78,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    1. State I was the driver with name + address?
    Why admit to being the driver?

    2. Explain the real reason i.e their app does not work and as one can not enter a new vehicle to pay for parking, even if make and reg are inverted, all info should be accessible to them, and if it does not, it is their issue not mine?
    You would need to attach evidence, e.g. can you get a video on another phone, showing an attempt being made to change the vehicle, and what happens?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 13th Jan 19, 5:56 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    Thanks coupon mad.

    1. True, I donít have to admit I was the driver but why am I appealing if I am not the driver as I am not the owner nor the keeper..?

    Leasing company has sent to garage who has sent to me as they know I was the driver and as such they are expecting me to handle it (which seems fair).

    Not sure why/who would otherwise appeal..?

    Thanks!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 19, 6:03 PM
    • 65,507 Posts
    • 78,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hmmm...it's a difficult one. If this was not a fake byelaws penalty, we would say to use the POFA and point out that the parking firm have not complied with para 13/14 and failed to issue a Notice to Hirer to transfer liability to the hirer (you).

    But I worry that if you try that stance the PPC will say ''OK then you are not the liable party, the owner is, so we will revert to their liability under the bylaws''.

    So to stop that disaster, I agree you should appeal as driver and go for this, with evidence for ITAL to see what happens when a person pays but tries to register a different vehicle (not 'vehicule'):

    I am not even the keeper. Just someone who was driving the car, parked it, paid for parking and got 11 penalties as their own payment app does not show all the info they oblige you to enter to create/add a new vehicle..
    And also cite the byelaw itself (byelaw 14) and show that by paying, you have NOT in fact breached any byelaw at all. A faulty app and or/or paying for the wrong vehicle, for whatever reason, is not a byelaw breach under Byelaw 14. Cite it, read it, throw that at them along with evidence in the form of a video of the fault.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 13th Jan 19, 6:23 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    Thanks Coupon-mad this makes sense. I will use that one to Indigo themselves by post for those they sent too late and I can’t appeal (and they will obiously reject on that basis) and directly to ITAL
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 13th Jan 19, 6:34 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    I am guessing they will reply that paying for the wrong vehicule is not a breach of byepass 15 but not paying for the right one is . The cars they are trying to play is that I have not paid for the car whose reg does not match their payment database as I have used the car make. My point is that I may/app may have only displayed the make, but in order to be able to add the car in the forst place I had to enter the reg even if in the wrong cell/cells inverted so that info has to be available and visible to them, as what would otherwise be the point to ask for it and only allow to create a new car unless all of this info is entered? As someone also pointed out, if it were that crucial their app should not allow one to enter a make instead of a reg. I appreciate that a reg can technically be anything including a car make, but it would not be that difficult to display a message saying ďit appears that you have entered a car make in the reg field, please ensure this is correct before confirmingĒ. There arenít hundreds of car makes so very feasible if one is in the business of really providing payment mechanism as opposed to be an accomplice of parking scammers, just as ITAL seems to be.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 19, 6:46 PM
    • 21,294 Posts
    • 33,517 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So to stop that disaster, I agree you should appeal as driver and go for this, with evidence for ITAL to see what happens when a person pays but tries to register a different vehicle (not 'vehicule')
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I am guessing they will reply that paying for the wrong vehicule is not a breach of byepass 15 but not paying for the right one is .
    Originally posted by Whatapain
    Hmmm, spelling lesson seems to have failed C-m.

    @OP - byepass 15, or byelaw 15?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 13th Jan 19, 7:06 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    Apologies, byelaw 14 indeed and vehicle! English is not my mother tongue and my spell check does not always default to English. This is what happens when one relies on technology too much: Brain becomes lazy!
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 14th Jan 19, 9:17 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    This is what I am planning to send to Indigo to appeal to the 6 PCNs I can’t appeal to online via post, and to ITAL. Your thoughts/comments/additions/changes are most welcome.

    Dear Sir, Madam,

    I have received 6 PCNs including this one ref: from the car leasing company and delays to send it from your side, did not make it possible to appeal online as per your process, and I am therefore doing this in writing via post, having no other choice.

    The driver paid for the day this PCN was issued, using Indigo’s online payment mechanism, Connect Cashless parking (receipt attached).
    In order to add a vehicle for payment for parking through the mobile phone app, user needs to enter 3 pieces of information, Colour, Car make and Car registration (account login page attached).
    If any piece of information is missing, the vehicle can not be added.

    1. All information entered by user has therefore to be made available for payment and can be accessed by Indigo.

    2. It is up to the payment mechanism provider i.e Connect Cashless parking i.e. Indigo’s own payment mechanism to ensure the app functions properly. If any information added by the user is not displayed when buying the parking time, due to app not working/user field error, it should be linked to all other information entered by the user as requested by the app, and can/should be visible to Indigo.
    Where/if information requested and provided by user is field sensitive, automatic checks and warning to user should be in place before confirming and adding vehicle.

    3. Paying for parking is not a breach of byelaw 14 as per PCN.

    On the basis of the 3 points above, I appeal to this PCN.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Regards,
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jan 19, 10:05 AM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 86,321 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Point 3 needs tidying up I think.

    Something along the lines of,
    "Failing to pay for parking is not a Railway Byelaw 14 offence. In any case, payment was made for the vehicle in question but was not recognised due to a fault with the parking app. Consequently no Railway Byelaw has been breached.
    This fault has allowed the correct data entered to be transposed and recorded on your system in an incorrect manner.
    This fault could easily be avoided by a simple change to the app coding/software to prevent the data from being entered incorrectly.
    Failure to foresee or correct this obvious fault on your part has resulted in a frustration of contract.

    I am therefore not liable for the spurious charge."

    Appeal each one separately and send first class from a PO counter.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-01-2019 at 10:09 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 14th Jan 19, 10:32 AM
    • 2,761 Posts
    • 3,446 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    itals knowledge of bylaws is worrying

    ,https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75313943&postcount=44
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Whatapain
    • By Whatapain 14th Jan 19, 12:09 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Whatapain
    Last questions:

    1.why 1st class as opposed to 2nd or recorded delivery?
    2. If this ended in court, would they deal with all 11 PCNs at once, or would that be 11 court sessions? Do costs if you have to do it x amount of times, no > than actual made up fees from the scammers (not that I am planning to pay them, I have done nothing wrong, used their own payment method and I will not give up. Ever.)

    Thanks!

    Many thanks to you, to everyone here. Great community and forums.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 14th Jan 19, 12:15 PM
    • 2,761 Posts
    • 3,446 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    with 1st class you can get proof of posting fro PO , nit with second , letters posted are seemed to be received (think its) 2 working days

    special or recorded or what its called this week , how can a post office box sign for a letter , and if they dont want it , they will not collect it , they then have proof that it was NOT delivered
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jan 19, 12:23 PM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 86,321 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The interpretation act deems post to have been delivered on the second working day after posting.
    You can get proof of posting for first class mail, but not second.

    So, if you can prove you posted something, the law assumes it was delivered.

    If it went to court, you can ask for all the PCNs to be dealt with in one case.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 14th Jan 19, 6:33 PM
    • 2,761 Posts
    • 3,446 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    appeal is binding on both parking co and customer , if you disagree with outcome you can argue in magistrates court

    as a sample question

    is the non display of a ticket a bylaw offence

    reply YES IT IS , see byelaw 14 (2)(ii) and (3). , and for those wanting to check see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

    with adjudication staff having this knowledge , the end user has no chance

    by entering an appeal with ital , they *** are circumventing KODOE , ie passing of info to non bpa members


    and you will get court papers in the post

    *** as appeals = ital prosecution service
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jan 19, 7:06 PM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 86,321 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I agree that 14 (2) (ii) may apply as it refers to the "offence" of not following instructions displayed on signage that could include displaying a ticket or making payment by an app.

    In this case I don't believe 14 (3) applies as this is for the alleged offence of non payment. The OP did pay.

    However, 14 (4) says The Owner may be liable for a penalty. In this instance the OP is not the vehicle owner.

    Since the ITAL decision may be binding on the motorist, there is a risk that if they use the ITAL appeals process they could be in a worse position than if they don't appeal.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-01-2019 at 7:12 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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