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  • FIRST POST
    • consumer23
    • By consumer23 8th Jan 19, 3:12 PM
    • 32Posts
    • 6Thanks
    consumer23
    Do You Really Need To Pay £xxx's for Dental Work?
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 19, 3:12 PM
    Do You Really Need To Pay £xxx's for Dental Work? 8th Jan 19 at 3:12 PM
    Happy new year to everyone firstly, Now to get down to business, I'd like to pick people's brains a bit.... I'm going to pay my dentist a visit soon.... Chances are they will tell me I need this and that done to my teeth etc. Which may not need doing... A bit like going to your car mechanic, and trying to get you to pay for extras that don't need doing.
    Do you know of any way to find out if they're telling you you're teeth are worse than they are because they want you to come back to pay for extra dental work?

    Thanks,
    P
Page 2
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 10th Jan 19, 7:50 AM
    • 3,939 Posts
    • 3,519 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Yes. Really!


    Not to me.
    Not on this thread.

    I can't see 'very clearly' - in fact, not at all - where either Toothsmith or brook2jack are 'VERY pro-private dentistry' on this specific thread.
    I think both posters have given the OP good advice.

    The time to challenge their advice is when they do show bias towards private dentistry for their own reasons - whatever they may be.


    If I've got it wrong regarding this thread, I'd appreciate you pointing out to me what I've missed.
    Thanks
    Originally posted by Pollycat
    I wasn't referring specifically to this thread, it is just an impression I have built up over a period of time.

    I am not in any way suggesting they give bad advice, indeed I have had some helpful advice from them and have frequently drawn attention to "the very helpful dentists who post here regularly".

    However it still interests me that there are many thousands of NHS dentists who presumably make a satisfactory living from providing mainly or exclusively NHS dental services. The regulars on here have all moved away from the NHS, which is their business / professional choice. I would just be interested to hear from some other dentists who have taken the opposite view.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 10th Jan 19, 8:51 AM
    • 21,758 Posts
    • 58,887 Thanks
    Pollycat
    I wasn't referring specifically to this thread, it is just an impression I have built up over a period of time.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    OK, that's fine.
    I haven't misunderstood any of the comments on this thread then..
    But for the record, I was referring specifically to this thread - way back up thread - see post #10.

    Hopefully, the OP will take the - imho - totally unbiased advice (on this thread) about his question and book an appointment pdq.
    I hope he's not been 'struck off' as it sounds like it's a while since he last went.
    • brook2jack
    • By brook2jack 10th Jan 19, 10:14 AM
    • 4,289 Posts
    • 3,964 Thanks
    brook2jack
    Another link about morale in NHS dentistry and people's future intentions https://www.dentistry.co.uk/2018/02/22/seventy-per-cent-dentists-plan-leave-nhs-within-five-years/

    At least one of the dentists who posts here is almost entirely NHS , Welshdent, and I believe that a couple of others are as well.

    As 86% of dentists (and rising) do not own their own practices they cannot decide to go private , they have to find a practice that already is private , or is in the process of going private.

    Until recently the large corporates were buying NHS practices and were major employers of young graduates. However there is an increasing trend for some of the corporates to sell off practices as they have found them increasingly uneconomical to run and dentists are reluctant to work for them for a variety of reasons. A quick google will reveal the extent of the problem eg https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/mydentist-east-harling-closure-2018-1-5742110

    NHS dentistry is running on fumes with the amount spent on each patient treated each year, including patient contribution , dropping https://bda.org/news-centre/press-releases/nhs-dentistry-across-uk-running-on-fumes

    Some difficult decisions need to be made about how we prioritise a tiny dental budget . It clearly cannot provide all dental treatment for everyone. Many dentists would welcome a core service that , at least, would provide simple measures to secure oral health for all and particularly the most vulnerable in society.

    Most postings will provide information about both nhs and private dentistry but people should be aware of the immense pressures in NHS dentistry and place the blame for its limitations not on their dentists but on a system which prioritises targets and cutting costs beyond anything else.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 10th Jan 19, 10:58 AM
    • 1,448 Posts
    • 854 Thanks
    fred246
    The Tories hate the NHS. They want to get rid of it but they know the public support the idea of free healthcare for everyone. The way the NHS is set up is that their only income is from the government. So the government collect taxes and give it to the NHS. So as the population increases and ages and new advances are made the NHS needs more money. Lots more money. The Tories announce grand plans for the NHS where they increase expenditure SLIGHTLY. No-one can argue against increased expenditure. They know the reality is that it's not working due to under funding but that is their plan. They want it NOT TO WORK for the PUBLIC and for the STAFF to get fed up of working in those conditions. The Tories are all very rich and pay for private treatment. You can see where we are heading. NHS for emergencies, cancer and very basic healthcare. If you want planned surgery your operation will be postponed so many times you will want to go private. Tories given up on waiting list targets.
    So in dental terms the NHS dentist will be fed up. Too many patients. Not enough income. Too much stress.
    The patients will be fed up. Very quick appointments. Treatments not available on the NHS.
    I lost one tooth. Spoke to a few dentists. All agreed an implant was the only sensible treatment. Not available on the NHS. I now have a private dentist even though I wanted to support the NHS.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 10th Jan 19, 11:34 AM
    • 3,939 Posts
    • 3,519 Thanks
    Undervalued
    The Tories hate the NHS. They want to get rid of it but they know the public support the idea of free healthcare for everyone. The way the NHS is set up is that their only income is from the government. So the government collect taxes and give it to the NHS. So as the population increases and ages and new advances are made the NHS needs more money. Lots more money. The Tories announce grand plans for the NHS where they increase expenditure SLIGHTLY. No-one can argue against increased expenditure. They know the reality is that it's not working due to under funding but that is their plan. They want it NOT TO WORK for the PUBLIC and for the STAFF to get fed up of working in those conditions. The Tories are all very rich and pay for private treatment. You can see where we are heading. NHS for emergencies, cancer and very basic healthcare. If you want planned surgery your operation will be postponed so many times you will want to go private. Tories given up on waiting list targets.
    So in dental terms the NHS dentist will be fed up. Too many patients. Not enough income. Too much stress.
    The patients will be fed up. Very quick appointments. Treatments not available on the NHS.
    I lost one tooth. Spoke to a few dentists. All agreed an implant was the only sensible treatment. Not available on the NHS. I now have a private dentist even though I wanted to support the NHS.
    Originally posted by fred246
    Do you feel better for your political rant!

    Personally, I think the problems go far deeper and there is actually far less political division on this issue than you believe.

    Dentistry is maybe a good example of the enormous problems the NHS faces. Medical treatments constantly evolve and become more costly, people live longer, stay in education longer and until recently were retiring ever earlier. So less and less people are shouldering the cost for more and more.

    So, either a majority have actually got to be willing to pay significantly more in tax or, like it does with dentistry, the NHS has to be honest and limits the services it provides.

    If I understand the dentists on here correctly, the NHS provides the minimum necessary to ensure basic dental health. Even then the better off end users pay a bit towards the costs of their treatment. As you say with your implant example, far more elaborate dental treatments are available. Your implant will maybe cost you £1500? if the NHS did it (which they generally won't) it would perhaps cost them £1000 to provide? You would pay, (if you are able) £250 towards that although that figure would also cover any other treatment done at the same time.

    So, does the tax payer pay at least £750 for your one tooth or does it spend that amount on some basic treatment for quite a lot of people?

    How many of the people who clamour for a "fully funded" (whatever that means) NHS are willing and able to pay their fair share of the cost?
    Last edited by Undervalued; 10-01-2019 at 11:37 AM.
    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 10th Jan 19, 11:45 AM
    • 8,892 Posts
    • 29,097 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    I go to an NHS dentist, and have been seeing the same team for years. I expect the basic examination & maintenance, (clean & polish) and advice on better care and answers to questions.

    Were I to go to a private dentist I might expect a list of things to do, mostly as if they only offered the same service as the NHS why would I go private? Happily, I don't worry about teeth whitening etc & my NHS dentist & I are working on the Teeth Not Falling Out bit, so I'm minded to trust my NHS dentist & would suggest that you make, attend & pay for the six-monthly appointments for the peace of mind.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 10th Jan 19, 2:11 PM
    • 1,448 Posts
    • 854 Thanks
    fred246
    I turned on the TV for the latest on brexit and got Theresa May's plan for the NHS. It can only mean they are worried there is going to be an election soon.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 10th Jan 19, 2:15 PM
    • 1,448 Posts
    • 854 Thanks
    fred246
    Were I to go to a private dentist I might expect a list of things to do, mostly as if they only offered the same service as the NHS why would I go private?
    Originally posted by DigForVictory
    I think you will find lots of people 'go private' when there is no logic whatsoever. Some people seem to think you get different doctors and dentists when you go private. Actually you do - you get the greedy ones.
    • DonnySaver
    • By DonnySaver 10th Jan 19, 2:27 PM
    • 467 Posts
    • 182 Thanks
    DonnySaver
    I stopped trusting my NHS dentist because:-

    a) was getting charged for less than 1 minute in the chair
    b) in that short time also getting told I needed a tooth filling that had never had a 'watch' placed on it before
    c) other family members also experienced (a) and (b)

    So, I went for an independent verdict at a private dentist. The tooth mentioned did NOT need filling at all.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 10th Jan 19, 2:55 PM
    • 3,939 Posts
    • 3,519 Thanks
    Undervalued
    I think you will find lots of people 'go private' when there is no logic whatsoever. Some people seem to think you get different doctors and dentists when you go private. Actually you do - you get the greedy ones.
    Originally posted by fred246
    Well in some cases you do get different one. Plenty of dentists only work privately as, to a lesser extent, do some doctors.

    Some people are happy to pay for a more personal service or to guarentee seeing the "top man" personally and not just one of his team. Some are willing to pay for more comfortable and private surroundings.

    Just like some people being happy to stay in, say, a Travel lodge where as other will pay a lot extra for Claridge's!
    • fred246
    • By fred246 10th Jan 19, 3:20 PM
    • 1,448 Posts
    • 854 Thanks
    fred246
    I turned on the TV for the latest on brexit and got Theresa May's plan for the NHS. It can only mean they are worried there is going to be an election soon.
    Originally posted by fred246
    There we go:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46824125
    • Nicki
    • By Nicki 10th Jan 19, 6:35 PM
    • 7,829 Posts
    • 27,872 Thanks
    Nicki
    Wow this turned sour pretty fast.

    Actually you do often get better treatment and different options if you see a doctor or dentist privately. Some examples are Pap smears for women who have symptoms but don’t meet the NHS arbitrary age limit for this routine and cheap test, or white fillings, and more aesthetically pleasing dentistry options rather than just what is necessary to maintain basic dental health.

    I haven’t noticed any of the dentists on this forum having a pro- private agenda. I have however seen them advise on what approaches are available on the NHS and which are only available on a private basis and on how the NHS contract works.

    I see my own (private) dentist regularly but have also had good advice on a couple of occasions on this forum from all 3 of the regular dentists so hope they aren’t feeling that no one appreciates their posts or that the views expressed by a few on this thread are commonly held
    • Toothsmith
    • By Toothsmith 11th Jan 19, 12:12 AM
    • 9,049 Posts
    • 10,867 Thanks
    Toothsmith
    I think you will find lots of people 'go private' when there is no logic whatsoever. Some people seem to think you get different doctors and dentists when you go private. Actually you do - you get the greedy ones.
    Originally posted by fred246
    This post doesn't even agree with the one you made 2 posts earlier!

    So you now see a 'greedy' dentist do you? Not one who you feel has just made the move in order to offer a better level of care than the state will pay for?

    And it's not just 'Tories' who want the NHS off the State books - all shades do! I went private under Nu Labour in the 90s. They were just as anti-NHS, particularly when it came to dentistry!

    Does anyone else remember Tony Blair's "anyone who wants to will be able to see an NHS dentist in 2 years" that was made at a Labour Party conference a couple of years after I'd gone private due to their complete inaction on the problems. Two years after that - the situation had got worse,not better. Patients queuing round the block to register with an NHS dentist in Scarborough!
    How to find a dentist.
    1. Get recommendations from friends/family/neighbours/etc.
    2. Once you have a short-list, VISIT the practices - dont just phone. Go on the pretext of getting a Practice Leaflet.
    3. Assess the helpfulness of the staff and the level of the facilities.
    4. Only book initial appointment when you find a place you are happy with.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 12th Jan 19, 7:59 PM
    • 1,448 Posts
    • 854 Thanks
    fred246
    My private dentist told me that he sees half as many patients as an NHS dentist would see but he charges them twice as much. So he gets paid the same for half the work. The fear is that if they all go private the poor will be left without basic dental cover.
    I was talking to an NHS consultant who was saying that she didn't do private work because she preferred being with her family in the evening to money grabbing at the private hospital. A private consultant is no better than an NHS consultant. It's just the private ones are the ones who want the extra dosh. A private surgeon is also more likely to recommend a private operation as that is a good money making opportunity.
    • Saffythecat
    • By Saffythecat 13th Jan 19, 9:28 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Saffythecat
    I’m in Scotland so the NHS system works a wee bit differently, but I am an NHS patient in a surgery which is mainly private - I’ve been going there since I was a child but they occasionally take on NHS patients still.

    My dentist is excellent, and I trust her 100%. I have had quite a few issues over the last 18 months due to developing bruxism, and she has been so kind and patient. (I’d gone about 15 years with just six monthly checks and no treatment needed, but have more than made up for it lately!) I could pay for private treatment if I wanted it with my own dentist (eg cosmetic work) or if I needed to see the hygienist, but the standard of care I receive as an NHS patient is fantastic.
    • welshdent
    • By welshdent 15th Jan 19, 2:48 PM
    • 1,874 Posts
    • 1,235 Thanks
    welshdent
    I'm an NHS dentist. I hate the system. I don't know any dentists that like the system we have. A system introduced in the same manner as the junior doctors contract. A contract forced on the profession as a means of cost cutting by central government. That government was a labour one. Just saying.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 15th Jan 19, 3:35 PM
    • 3,939 Posts
    • 3,519 Thanks
    Undervalued
    I'm an NHS dentist. I hate the system. I don't know any dentists that like the system we have. A system introduced in the same manner as the junior doctors contract. A contract forced on the profession as a means of cost cutting by central government. That government was a labour one. Just saying.
    Originally posted by welshdent
    So why do you work in it then? (Serious question)

    In another thread you mention that you have additional training and qualifications in specialised root canal work. Presumably you therefore also have the additional expensive equipment?

    You also say in the other thread that, in effect, the NHS doesn't pay at all for root canal treatment although it should be provided if the dentist feels it is within their competence?

    I'm lost....
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 15th Jan 19, 5:10 PM
    • 4,073 Posts
    • 10,994 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    Actually you do often get better treatment and different options if you see a doctor or dentist privately. Some examples are Pap smears for women who have symptoms but don’t meet the NHS arbitrary age limit for this routine and cheap test
    Originally posted by Nicki
    Women with symptoms are entitled to whatever tests and treatment they need on the NHS.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 15th Jan 19, 5:11 PM
    • 4,073 Posts
    • 10,994 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel

    So you now see a 'greedy' dentist do you? Not one who you feel has just made the move in order to offer a better level of care than the state will pay for?
    Originally posted by Toothsmith
    Unfortunately they've also made the choice to only offer their care to people with a certain level of disposable income, not to everybody who needs it.
    • brook2jack
    • By brook2jack 15th Jan 19, 5:34 PM
    • 4,289 Posts
    • 3,964 Thanks
    brook2jack
    Actually many areas will not let dentists run restricted NHS contracts eg seeing children and unwaged on NHS everyone else private.

    So most dentists have to chose all NHS or all private.
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