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  • FIRST POST
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 6th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    • 26Posts
    • 13Thanks
    CVKTA
    Letter Before Claim - SCS Law & UKPC - Please Advise
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 19, 4:05 PM
    Letter Before Claim - SCS Law & UKPC - Please Advise 6th Jan 19 at 4:05 PM
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for some advice please, I've received a Letter Before Claim from SCS Law in relation to 5 unpaid Parking Notices issued between Nov 2014 - April 2015.

    As per a previous thread posted by DAngel, I think i have a pretty good initial response to send to them but I'm looking for anything else that I can add.
    The response that DAngel posted coupled with a few additions from Coupon-mad I think I have a fairy good response minus a (probably required) bit of legal clout. So if anyone can advise. then that would be great

    The backstory is:
    Residential block of flats, I owned a property and each property came with 1 allocated parking space. If you didn't have your parking pass in the windscreen then you got a ticket. All tickets were received when my car was in my own parking space. A few or more of them were received when the pass was on the dashboard but not 'displayed correctly' (I assume this means wasn't adhered to the windscreen.)

    There are a total of 5 charges at £160.00 each, totalling £800.00 which I simply do not have the money to pay!

    My initial repose to this LBC will be something along the lines of the below. If anyone else can advise as to what I should be adding then that would be great.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    2. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    3. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    4. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    5. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    6. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    7. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    8. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Any thoughts then I would be eternally grateful.

    Many thanks
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 19, 12:45 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,989 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ooh, too red to read, reminds me of football teams I don't support!

    Please put it in black and not bold font.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 9th Mar 19, 10:47 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    As requested....

    I write further to your correspondence dated 14th February 2019. I have now read through your information and ‘evidence’ bundle.
    As per your comments, I have studied my lease and have attached a copy of the relevant sections for your perusal even though I am absolutely under no obligation to do so. Part 2, ‘Rights Granted to the Lessee’ states that as the Lessee within this residential complex, I have: “The exclusive right to park one private motor vehicle on the parking space (or each of the spaces as may be the case) tinted in green an Plan 1 or as allocated by the Lessor or the Management Company in writing from time to time”.
    Attached you will also see a copy of ‘Plan 1’. The Lease that I hold is wholly between Persimmon Homes and me, the Lessee. Nowhere within the terms of the lease is there any mention of any terms which would fetter or restrict my enjoyment of my property.

    Whilst operating your enterprise, I’m sure your client has become quite versed regarding the concept of ‘Primacy of Contract’ within Residential Parking cases. However, for the avoidance of doubt, the idea behind primacy of contract is that a contract cannot be unilaterally altered by one party without the permission of the other. Thankfully, I am armed with my lease agreement and those terms contained therein.
    Under the Landlord & Tenant Act, any variation of a lease has to be through consultation and strict agreement. This never occurred; therefore my lease with Persimmon Homes cannot have been varied.
    Moreover, I invite you to consider the principle of ‘derogation of grant’: The rule that a party should not derogate from its grant embodies a general legal principle that, if the landlord agrees to confer a benefit on the lessee, then the landlord should not do anything that substantially deprives the lessee of the enjoyment of that benefit. There is considerable case law which supports my view that the freeholder, in engaging with a contract with you client, has placed on leaseholders an onerous burden of having to display a permit at the risk of incurring a charge if they fail to do so. This is sufficiently intrusive as to override the grant of my parking space, effectively restricting and charging for a right previously enjoyed, without the required consensus and deed of variation.
    Please review the following pertinent court decisions:
    In Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF14F0 [2016] it was found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

    In Link Parking v Ms P C7GF50J7 [2016] it was also found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

    With reference to the ‘CONTRACT FOR THE SUPPLY OF WARDEN CONTROL’ document within your evidence bundle, may I clearly point out that as stated by yourself in your previous letter, this is a “Redacted contract of authority between UK Parking Control Ltd and Persimmon Management Ltd c/o Mainstay Residential”.
    Your client holds a contract with Persimmon, for supply of Warden Control, not with me. Why would I be in the least part interested in a document which has nothing to do with my leasehold agreement signed by two parties neither of whom is me?
    Furthermore, the contract that you client holds with Persimmon in fact states a clear start date of September 2014, which is a full three months after I took ownership of the property and began enjoying the rights to my lease. My Lease is in fact dated 20th June 2014. As the lease between Persimmon and I was already in effect, no third parties such as your client, who have never been party to my lease, have any claims of anything against me in respect of my proprietary rights or interests.
    Under contract law, I’m sure your client is also aware that as a party already entered into a signed agreement, I cannot be offered or entered into any form of contract via signage or otherwise for a service that I am already enjoying the use of, as per my lease agreement. What am I asserting is simply this: since, by virtue of the terms my lease agreement, I had been already afforded the right to park a motor vehicle in the parking space (I again refer you to the copy of ‘plan 1’) there can be no contract as your client claims simply because there is no ‘quid pro quo’, i.e. no consideration provided to me and I certainly provided none.
    A permit had always been displayed, merely as a courtesy, on my vehicle while I park in my allocated parking space. This does not constitute the acceptance of any onerous ‘contract’ with your client. The signage onsite is there only to form a contract with non-residents and residents who do not own a car parking space.
    I will end my response by advising you that the issue of unnecessarily penalising residents lawfully parking on their own property is not being ignored by parliament and our legislature. Notwithstanding the likelihood of an imminent introduction of legislation protecting people against unlawful parking charges (I refer your client to: Parking (Code of Practice) Bill 2017-19 which has passed its third reading in the House of Lords on 4th March 2019) I will also report the matter to my constituency’s MP.
    Yours Sincerely,
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 12th Mar 19, 1:14 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hi all,

    Did anyone manage to cast their eyes over this?

    Thanks CVKTA
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 12th Mar 19, 2:08 PM
    • 4,624 Posts
    • 3,999 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Is that a response to a LoC/LBA/LBC/LBCCC or a POPLA appeal or a defence?
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 13th Mar 19, 9:22 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hi Le_Kirk, I received an LBC, thena response and this is my next response....
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Mar 19, 9:48 AM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,668 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    To my untrained legal eye, I am by no means a lawyer (not even a barrack-room varietal) it looks good to me. But, from experience, it is unlikely to have the immediate effect that you are perhaps seeking. Nonetheless, fire it off to them.

    It will lay the ground for a Judge to fully consider and possibly pave the way for a counterclaim on your part (breach of DPA - no reasonable cause to access your data from the DVLA is one possible option). More on that nearer the time, there may be other options - harassment, unreasonable behaviour?

    If you are served with a formal court claim, it's at the defence stage you need to issue a counterclaim - a breach of the DPA, general figure is ~£500 - and you will need to enclose the filing fee payment (£25 for up to £300, £35 for up to £500) with your defence/counterclaim. You can't issue a counterclaim further down the line, you need to strike, or forever hold your peace (and miss your chance!).

    Issuing a counterclaim means they have to defend, they can't just slink away by discontinuing at the last minute (as many PPCs do when they don't really have any claim), with you having no redress despite all the work you have had to undertake to defend.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 13-03-2019 at 9:53 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 13th Mar 19, 9:55 AM
    • 4,624 Posts
    • 3,999 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Couldn't better Umkomaas's response!
    • DAngel
    • By DAngel 13th Mar 19, 3:35 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    DAngel
    SCS must be loving this... Glad that you've got your wheels in motion.... i'm probably going to be pinching parts of your latest letter - which is brill by the way!
    Last edited by DAngel; 14-03-2019 at 10:11 AM.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 14th Mar 19, 7:50 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Umkomaas & Le_Kirk thank you for your input. Massively appreciated.
    DAngel, feel free! Unity in numbers! Good Luck!
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 19th Mar 19, 7:28 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Morning all,

    Response received from SCS Law:

    Re: UK Parking Control Ltd

    I write further to your email and letter dated 14 March 2019.

    Before our client is able to comment on the points you have raised within your email and letter fully, we request that you provide a full copy of the leasehold agreement. Our client is unable to assess the excerpts you have provided without considering the full document.

    Upon receiving the above, we can advise our client accordingly and respond to the substantial points you have raised.

    In response to your request that all correspondence is documented by post and email, it is our position that it is unreasonable to do so. We request that all correspondence be conducted by either email or post moving forward.

    Please confirm which method of correspondence you would prefer.

    I look forward to receiving your response in due course.
    Yours sincerely,

    I've already provided them with scanned copies of the relevant section. Do I continue with sending the whole thing or tell them that if they wish to see it then they will have to find it elsewhere??

    Thanks, CVKTA
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Mar 19, 8:31 AM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,668 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Write back and tell them that if their client had undertaken a full and professional due diligence assessment of the estate when selling their services and signing a contract with the MA, you would expect them to already have such a document in their possession.

    (If correct....) tell them that the rest of the lease is generic to all residences and as their client should have a copy following their due diligence, there is no need for you to supply them another.

    See if others have anything to add/alternative suggestions.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Mar 19, 12:02 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    I agree with Umkomaas.

    You could add a line suggesting that if they can no longer find their copy of the lease, they can always purchase another copy from The Land Registry.
    .
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 19th Mar 19, 12:14 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    This was kind of what I was thinking, thanks for your input both!
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 21st Mar 19, 11:58 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    My latest response:
    ______________

    The excerpts that I graciously provided contained the relevant sections from my Lease Agreement for your client to quash their farcical claims against me.

    With your clients outlandish monetary claims against residences parking in their own spaces, I assume that they would have had undertaken a full and professional due diligence assessment of the estate when selling their services and signing a contract with the Persimmon then I expect that they would have such a document in their possession

    I can assure you that the rest of the lease is generic to all residences and as your client should have a copy following their due diligence, there is no need for me to supply them another.

    If your client can no longer find their copy of the lease, then I'm sure they would be able purchase another copy from The Land Registry.

    Please correspond via email going forward.

    Yours Sincerely,
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 21st Mar 19, 3:31 PM
    • 4,624 Posts
    • 3,999 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    claims against residences parking
    Shouldn't that be: -
    claims against residences residents parking
    contract with the Persimmon
    And you have another residences further down!
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 22nd Mar 19, 10:36 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Thanks Le_Kirk, hastily written. Amended now.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 16th Apr 19, 8:11 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hello all,

    Response has been received, pleading for the full lease copy even after the previous emails:

    Re: UK Parking Control Ltd

    I write further to your email dated 21 March 2019. I have now taken our client's instructions.

    Our client requests a copy of your full lease to read the document in its entirety. This will enable our client to consider all clauses relevant to this matter and to consider your position in full. The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims aims to encourage early engagement between the parties and exchange of sufficient information about the matter. It is our client's position that assessing the lease in its entirety would help to clarifies the issues in dispute.

    I would be grateful if you could provide the above within 14 days,

    Yours sincerely,

    Any thoughts?

    CVKTA
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Apr 19, 12:50 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    Any thoughts?
    Originally posted by CVKTA
    Yes, I have one.

    Their client will surely have already read every line of the lease.

    What company would set up a contract with a landowner without carrying out Due Diligence to confirm that they had the right to form legitimate contracts with leaseholders?

    If their client cannot now lay their hands on that lease, perhaps they should be invited to buy their own replacement copy from H.M.Land Registry.
    .
    • Gunner84
    • By Gunner84 16th Apr 19, 1:58 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    Gunner84
    I had a carbon copy of this situation. It basically just went around in circles. They kept asking for the lease, I kept telling them to fill out an OC2 form, as I am not their administrative assistant, and this should have all been done.

    Radio silence eventually until court (the amount was £1100 in an otherwise identical situation). On the day they of course had the whole lease, and desperately pointed to estate regulations even where it wasn't relevant.

    Stand strong. The information is available to them and they will already have it.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 16th Apr 19, 2:38 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Thanks Keith and Gunner!

    In my previous contact with them I stated exactly as Keith mentioned and they have come back just pleading for it again!?
    I will reiterate this again.

    Gunner, what was the outcome in court?!
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