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  • FIRST POST
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 16th Dec 18, 10:33 AM
    • 14Posts
    • 4Thanks
    jedbriant
    Parking Fine - BW LEGAL
    • #1
    • 16th Dec 18, 10:33 AM
    Parking Fine - BW LEGAL 16th Dec 18 at 10:33 AM
    Hi there

    So we received a ticket for parking (in our own flats - an area where apparently the land-owner doesn't want people parking their cars, although we are unsuccessful in finding out who the land-owner is).

    One day I wake up to find signs everywhere outside the flats and my car is parked in the bays it says not to park in (As it had been BEFORE they put the signs up). I send an email to the parking company along the lines of this:
    "Hi, im a resident of the flats, i've been parking in XXX for a while, had no idea were gonna be stopped parking there. Do you know how i obtain a permit? As your sign says we need a permit. I have spoken to our estate agents and landlord and they have no idea who the land-owner is or how to obtain a permit. Cheers" - This email was sent on 20th July 2018.

    I also phoned and was told they wouldn't start fining people for 14days after putting the signs up. I agreed I would move my car and that would be the end of it.

    Sure enough - around 12th August, we received a penalty charge notice for the 20th July 2018. So I phone the company, usual spout, said signs had been up weeks and I shouldn't of been parking there, he said log an appeal. I did, declined. Also appealed to IPC who were very unhelpful and rude to me and declined the appeal.

    So I thought - i'll ignore the letters instead, we aren't paying a fine for them putting signs up next to our car and sending us a charge notice. Which leads me to yesterday, we recieve a letter from BW Legal. "We have been instructed by Countrywide Parking Management LTD and TRACE Debt Recovery UK, balance of 160.00 due within 16days from this letter (28th Dec) if you don't pay we will take our clients instructions to commence legal proceedings against you"

    Cheers,
    J

    UPDATE 31/12/18:
    Hi Guys,
    So I posted in here before, and was advised to wait and see if I get a Letter of Claim, which I have recieved. I have sent a FOI request to Countrywide Parking, who by looking through other threads generally don't respond to these. What do I do next? Do I respond to this letter of Claim or wait for an application to Small Claims?
    Cheers
    J
    Last edited by jedbriant; 31-12-2018 at 9:53 PM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Dec 18, 10:58 AM
    • 22,524 Posts
    • 35,445 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 16th Dec 18, 10:58 AM
    • #2
    • 16th Dec 18, 10:58 AM
    You're at the debt collector stage which means you ignore anything sent to you. It doesn't mean that BWL or the PPC won't issue court proceedings, but you're not at that stage yet.

    It seems that BWL are trawling-in huge shoals of unpaid PCNs from PPCs previously not having the resources/brains/guts/sense to issue their own court proceedings. I expect you're one of the fish so caught up.

    BWL will push all the way via a totally unmanned computerised process of issuing you with regular, intimidating letters making you jump through hoops just to avoid a default CCJ.

    It is fairly early days in terms of this strategy and we have yet to see how far BWL will take a case where a motorist is responding to all their threats and puts up a solid defence and Witness Statement. As far as I'm aware, we've not yet seen a fully defended court case relating to any of these hitherto non-litigious PPCs. Time will tell.

    Come back on this thread if you receive a LBC or MCOL Claim. The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #5 deals with acronyms, and post #4 tells you all about dealing with debt collectors.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 16-12-2018 at 11:01 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Dec 18, 11:57 AM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 16th Dec 18, 11:57 AM
    • #3
    • 16th Dec 18, 11:57 AM
    I assume that you are a tenant. What does your AST say about parking? What rights does it give you to park.

    Your landlord will certainly know who the landowner/Headlease holder is, it will be on his/her deeds.

    Also, it is not a fine, it is an invoice for damages for an alleged breach of an alleged contract, and secondly, you should never ever phone these scammers, it is highly likely that, unless you pay them they will take you to court, so everything in writing from now on.

    Read this and complain to your MP

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    It is the will of Parliament that these scammers be put out of business. Hopefully that will take place in the near future. The Bill has passed through the HOC without hitch, and goes to the Lords soon. In the meantime involve your MP, the poor dears are buckling under the weight of complaints about these scammers. Read this one which I wrote earlier

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

    Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Third Reading in late November, and, with a fair wind, will become Law next year.

    All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 16th Dec 18, 12:17 PM
    • 10,930 Posts
    • 14,480 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:17 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:17 PM

    It is fairly early days in terms of this strategy and we have yet to see how far BWL will take a case where a motorist is responding to all their threats and puts up a solid defence and Witness Statement. As far as I'm aware, we've not yet seen a fully defended court case relating to any of these hitherto non-litigious PPCs. Time will tell.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I wonder how BWLegal will handle the fake 60 they add on.
    Everyone should make the court aware of this hidden double recovery

    BWLegal were rubbished over Elliott v Loake and CPS v AJH Films in the courts ....... let us hope the same will apply to the fake 60

    They may be money predators but they are NOT smart, If they were smart, they would not put themselves in the position of being rubbished. A pathetic excuse for a solicitor
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Dec 18, 12:33 PM
    • 22,524 Posts
    • 35,445 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:33 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:33 PM
    There will be so many punters, shaken to the core by the receipt of a 'solicitors letter', that the cheque book will be out of the bottom drawer and a payment (including the added 60) whizzing off to BWL faster than the proverbial off a shovel. I'd guess at 60%+/-.

    The number of people we help to avoid paying anything is minuscule. I'd guess at 1%+/-

    Unless or until one of these actually gets to court, the status and validity of the 60 is only open to conjecture.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Dec 18, 12:48 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:48 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Dec 18, 12:48 PM
    Unless or until one of these actually gets to court, the status and validity of the 60 is only open to conjecture.

    and even then they will ignore it, just as they continue to cite Elliot v Loake. Until the SRA sanctions them, they will continue to drive a coach and horses through the good name of their profession.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 16th Dec 18, 10:26 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 18, 10:26 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 18, 10:26 PM
    These comments are really helpful.

    I will talk to the landlord tomorrow as he is coming round to sort my floor and press him as he is a nice guy, probably will be up for helping which is good.

    I will write to my local MP about this.

    I have only just realized now that this isn't a final letter before claim and I note this parking company have never taken anyone to court, highly doubt they'll start now, especially considering I have evidence to prove their signage went up the same day I got this invoice, which indicates I agreed to no such contract.
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 31st Dec 18, 9:53 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    • #8
    • 31st Dec 18, 9:53 PM
    • #8
    • 31st Dec 18, 9:53 PM
    Update, received letter of claim.

    Sent a SAR request.

    Do I email BW Legal to ask them to put account on hold until I receive a response from Countrywide Parking?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 31st Dec 18, 9:59 PM
    • 22,524 Posts
    • 35,445 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 31st Dec 18, 9:59 PM
    • #9
    • 31st Dec 18, 9:59 PM
    Update, received letter of claim.

    Sent a SAR request.

    Do I email BW Legal to ask them to put account on hold until I receive a response from Countrywide Parking?
    Originally posted by jedbriant
    You can do. But they will try to knock you back. Then you complain to the ICO.

    Read this post from a recent thread:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75241400&postcount=7
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 11th Jan 19, 11:38 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    So UPDATE:

    Recieved SAR request back. Just sent us all of the letters they have sent us and a copy of our appeal etc. Pictures of the car as well, no direct pictures of our VIN number or the signs which is interesting. Still refusing to give proof that the signs were up when we parked there.

    Where do we go from here? Letter to BW legal? We never got a reply from them when requesting to put the account on hold.

    Any help is appreciated.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Jan 19, 11:50 AM
    • 10,930 Posts
    • 14,480 Thanks
    beamerguy
    So UPDATE:

    Recieved SAR request back. Just sent us all of the letters they have sent us and a copy of our appeal etc. Pictures of the car as well, no direct pictures of our VIN number or the signs which is interesting. Still refusing to give proof that the signs were up when we parked there.

    Where do we go from here? Letter to BW legal? We never got a reply from them when requesting to put the account on hold.

    Any help is appreciated.
    Originally posted by jedbriant
    As said, complain to the ICO and also the SRA
    https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems.page
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 11th Jan 19, 1:46 PM
    • 5,007 Posts
    • 6,116 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    VRM - not VIN - if they do not have any pictures of the VRM, then how do their pictures prove YOUR car was there? Of course if you dont dney it was there, thats fairly irrelvant.
    You were not entitled to pictures of the signs as they are not data relating to you, of course.

    Response to BW Legal once you have digested the contents of the SAR.
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 13th Jan 19, 4:54 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    I will complain tomorrow to those people, thankyou.Thankyou for this advice.

    I have drafted a response to BW Legal.

    Please let me know what you think.


    Dear BW Legal,
    REF: XXXXXX

    Thank-you for your correspondence. I note your client has kindly returned my SAR request.
    I have already spoken to your client on multiple occasions detailing why this payment was not made for this alleged breach of contract. Some of which is set out below:

    1.1 I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and it is not denied that this car was parked at this location.

    1.2 I have informed your client that these signs were NOT present when this veicle was parked. Of which your client acknowledged in a phone-call to myself however, still continues to pursue this claim. I have supplied evidence to your client of an email from myself to your client on the day of this alleged breach of contract to enquire about the signs going up on that day and how I can obtain a permit, the email address is the same advertised on their business website to which I received no response, the PPN is dated to the same day however, after the time, that I sent this email, which would prove this being the day I noticed the signs and moved my vehicle from that then restricted parking area.

    1.3 Any breach of contract is denied and it is also denied that a contact was agreed or implied as there was no signage and no information to suggest parking here was restricted.

    1.4 I would kindly ask this claim to be closed on the basis that these signs were not present when my vehicle was parked therefore there is no legal basis for a claim of breach of contract.

    I will await your response in regards to the dismissal of this claim.
    Kind Regards
    XXXXXXX XXXXXX
    Last edited by jedbriant; 13-01-2019 at 5:06 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jan 19, 5:01 PM
    • 13,685 Posts
    • 14,953 Thanks
    KeithP
    As nosferatu1001 pointed out earlier, you should not be mentioning VIN.

    There never ever will be a photograph of a VIN.
    .
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 13th Jan 19, 5:05 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    Very interesting - Plate swapping would be a loop-hole for that then. Ok, I will remove that. Is the rest okay?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 19, 5:34 PM
    • 68,624 Posts
    • 80,892 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No 'kindly' and no 'kind regards'. They are not worthy and it's too obsequious.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jan 19, 5:50 PM
    • 13,685 Posts
    • 14,953 Thanks
    KeithP
    Very interesting - Plate swapping would be a loop-hole for that then. Ok, I will remove that. Is the rest okay?
    Originally posted by jedbriant
    What are you talking about?

    Stick what is a vin? into google to correct your misunderstanding.
    .
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 13th Jan 19, 11:42 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    What are you talking about?

    Stick what is a vin? into google to correct your misunderstanding.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Not sure i'm the one with the misunderstanding or why you need to be so rude.. a VIN is a Vehicle Identification Number. It's the only way to identify a vehicle for certain in law. But okay, thanks.
    • jedbriant
    • By jedbriant 13th Jan 19, 11:43 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jedbriant
    No 'kindly' and no 'kind regards'. They are not worthy and it's too obsequious.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Ha! Will do. Thankyou, i'll send this off tomorrow evening unless anyone else can see anything I could change/add.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 14th Jan 19, 10:27 AM
    • 4,351 Posts
    • 3,498 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Not sure i'm the one with the misunderstanding or why you need to be so rude.. a VIN is a Vehicle Identification Number. It's the only way to identify a vehicle for certain in law. But okay, thanks.
    Originally posted by jedbriant
    By now you will have done your research and found that the VIN plate is usually affixed to a car under the bonnet. Perhaps you are referring to the VRN or VRM or Reg. No. or number plate.
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