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  • FIRST POST
    • orangesnaps
    • By orangesnaps 15th Nov 18, 4:40 PM
    • 59Posts
    • 51Thanks
    orangesnaps
    Outfox The Market Direct Debit changes
    • #1
    • 15th Nov 18, 4:40 PM
    Outfox The Market Direct Debit changes 15th Nov 18 at 4:40 PM
    MoneySavingExpert.com Insert December 2018:

    You might like to read our latest news story:

    Outfox the Market customers vent fury over energy bill hikes

    Back to the original post...

    We switched from Eon to OTM on late May of this year. Our monthly debit is 100.21, we are currently 370+ in credit. Our monthly bill is 50-70 & that's with the meter reading (no estimates). I've just got an email that they are hiking our DD to 140.29 without any way to decline it. I don't agree with it. Once the bill for this month comes which will be about the same usage from last month, we will be in credit for 400+. How much more do they want?

    We can't switch without avoiding the exit fee as we are in a fixed tariff with them.
    From our experience with Eon, they gave the customer the option to lower the direct debit to a certain point.
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 17-12-2018 at 2:02 PM.
Page 64
    • Steve456
    • By Steve456 14th Jan 19, 7:38 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    Steve456
    Should have cancelled my DD - didn't do it in time despite switching supplier on the 25th December my whopping doubled DD of 83 went out today (previously 40 a month). Outfox told me to wait for my final bill or contact the bank...
    I had a 35 credit balance and can't believe I would have used that amount in the 13 days between my December bill on the 12th and me leaving on the 25th...
    I must admit I did kind of not do it out of intrigue as I've never had a supplier take direct debit payments after I had left them before and with Outfox taking them in advance makes it worse...
    Originally posted by martyp

    My view would be that they should not have taken any further advance payments once you have left. They did that to me in December and I simply instructed my bank to reverse the payment and cancel the direct debit at the same time.
    • Organza_Lace
    • By Organza_Lace 14th Jan 19, 10:28 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 5,403 Thanks
    Organza_Lace
    4 phone calls all to be told that they owe me money but the hero hub says i am 57 in debit. 5 Days they say it takes the hub to be updated after a payment has been made (which was supposed to pay off my final bill). Its been 12 days.
    • megafern
    • By megafern 15th Jan 19, 7:05 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    megafern
    Reason
    Simple. I did not reverse the DD payment because OFTM were so tardy in updating my account balance, I had no idea where I stood and did not want to incur a financial penalty for cancelling the DD whilst owing them. Not rocket science.
    • Steve456
    • By Steve456 15th Jan 19, 3:23 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    Steve456
    Simple. I did not reverse the DD payment because OFTM were so tardy in updating my account balance, I had no idea where I stood and did not want to incur a financial penalty for cancelling the DD whilst owing them. Not rocket science.
    Originally posted by megafern

    I reversed the DD payment knowing full well that I would owe them money. However, I had told them via email that I would not owe them any more than 10 to 20 and that I would reverse the payment if they took the threatened 200. They did that, and so I reversed the DD. I would actually enjoy dealing with them if they now try to "fine" me for cancelling the DD. I very much doubt they will however.


    In your situation, as they have not issued an invoice in a timely manner but have still taken a direct debit payment, I do not know why on earth you think they would be entitled to any sort of penalty payment. Plus, of course, once you have cancelled the direct debit, the only way they have of trying to recover any money they claim that you owe is to 1) issue an invoice and 2) if you don't pay it, take action against you. That would probably make front page headlines!


    As you say, "not rocket science"!
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 15th Jan 19, 5:38 PM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 1,192 Thanks
    Anthorn
    I do not know why on earth you think they would be entitled to any sort of penalty payment. Plus, of course, once you have cancelled the direct debit, the only way they have of trying to recover any money they claim that you owe is to 1) issue an invoice and 2) if you don't pay it, take action against you. That would probably make front page headlines

    As you say, "not rocket science"!
    Originally posted by Steve456
    No it isn't rocket science: They are entitled to the penalty payment because it's in the Ts&Cs that customers agreed to. They also agreed to pay by direct debit and it is also in the Ts&Cs that the only payment method is direct debit. In the case of action to recover a debt due to non-payment well, there goes your credit history!
    • martyp
    • By martyp 15th Jan 19, 5:50 PM
    • 841 Posts
    • 121 Thanks
    martyp
    This is great, just went into my online account with Outfox and they have billed me up to the 11th January despite my supply switching on the 25th December?! I actually checked on the 25th December online to see my switch had happened and Peoples Energy were showing as my new supplier?
    • Me1900
    • By Me1900 15th Jan 19, 7:49 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Me1900
    On 27/12/2018 I received the apology email from OFTM where they said they would be reverting back to the 12 equal DD payments. The email said that on the 15/01/2019 everyone would get an email with their 'new' DD amount. There's only 4 hours left of the 15th and I'm yet to receive an email. Has any other remaining customer received their latest DD amount?
    • Fi81
    • By Fi81 15th Jan 19, 8:09 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Fi81
    Back to the old direct debit - except it's 3 times the old one!
    Got my email confirming OFTM were reverting my payments to 12 equal direct debits. However, the direct debit has gone from 20ish to 70! Given they have yet to apply a single meter reading there is no basis for their calculation.

    Their email also states that the new amount starts on the 7th January!

    Unimpressed - especially while still trying to get a final bill from solarplicity since November.
    • TransmitThis
    • By TransmitThis 15th Jan 19, 8:23 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    TransmitThis
    300 in Credit - Awaiting Refund
    Left on the 20th (Dec) and 27th they decide to take out 270 from my bank

    Awaiting final bill and refund from these clowns

    Imgur - /a/hXzgYtK

    Then there was pay in advance for the next supplier, all around Xmas too,
    If I hadn't had an extra 500 in the bank i'd have been rather annoyed.

    I believe these people are just incredibly incompetent not malicious,
    Next year I'll be going for a fixed tariff as these variable ones are all just bait and switch.
    Stay frosty out there.
    • Topiary
    • By Topiary 15th Jan 19, 8:25 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Topiary
    Got my email confirming OFTM were reverting my payments to 12 equal direct debits. However, the direct debit has gone from 20ish to 70! Given they have yet to apply a single meter reading there is no basis for their calculation.

    Their email also states that the new amount starts on the 7th January!

    Unimpressed - especially while still trying to get a final bill from solarplicity since November.
    Originally posted by Fi81
    ? first line of my email =
    "We are pleased to advise that this will take effect from your February 2019 billing date"
    Monthly in my case (low user) has dropped from 65 to 40
    Sticking with OTFM for now
    • Fi81
    • By Fi81 15th Jan 19, 8:39 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Fi81
    Back to the old direct debit - except it's 3 times the old one!
    yeah I think the 7th Jan is typo but it just speaks to the whole farce.

    I'll call them tomorrow to get them to change my debit so it reflects my actual usage.

    glad yours is to your liking
    • bubieyehyeh
    • By bubieyehyeh 15th Jan 19, 8:43 PM
    • 435 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    bubieyehyeh
    Did a webchat about what should have been my final bill, after explaining all the issues with the bill, there was no responce for 40mins!



    When they came back 40min later they claim there system had crashed. Sounded like !!!!!!!! to me.



    The person didn't really address any issues, but said I would be contacted about it soon. I asked what "soon" meant, and they said 4-6 weeks.



    The latest bill didn't calculate VAT correctly, and they couldn't even add up the various subtotals correctly. This was not a minor rounding issue, but an error of more than 1 in their favour.


    They really are the biggest bunch of muppets. I thought co-op, flow, ebico and robin hood were bad but this lot are so much worse.
    • martyp
    • By martyp 15th Jan 19, 8:48 PM
    • 841 Posts
    • 121 Thanks
    martyp
    I had the "system crash" in my chat about them taking direct debit payments after I had left too. Someone else suddenly took over and asked how they can help as if the chat is initially taken by a less knowledgeable colleague that isn't safe enough to discuss dodgy extra payments etc.
    • TransmitThis
    • By TransmitThis 15th Jan 19, 9:44 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    TransmitThis
    @bubieyehyeh

    I'm finding it almost impossible to get an accurate account of the bill.

    I can get precise numbers of KW used and time period.
    But the 7 different price increases . . . didn't happen on the days I did meter readings so my spreadsheet will contain some averages.

    For you to get it down to +/- 1 is impressive.
    • Steve456
    • By Steve456 15th Jan 19, 10:28 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    Steve456
    I reversed the DD payment knowing full well that I would owe them money. However, I had told them via email that I would not owe them any more than 10 to 20 and that I would reverse the payment if they took the threatened 200. They did that, and so I reversed the DD. I would actually enjoy dealing with them if they now try to "fine" me for cancelling the DD. I very much doubt they will however.


    In your situation, as they have not issued an invoice in a timely manner but have still taken a direct debit payment, I do not know why on earth you think they would be entitled to any sort of penalty payment. Plus, of course, once you have cancelled the direct debit, the only way they have of trying to recover any money they claim that you owe is to 1) issue an invoice and 2) if you don't pay it, take action against you. That would probably make front page headlines!


    As you say, "not rocket science"!
    Originally posted by Steve456
    No it isn't rocket science: They are entitled to the penalty payment because it's in the Ts&Cs that customers agreed to. They also agreed to pay by direct debit and it is also in the Ts&Cs that the only payment method is direct debit. In the case of action to recover a debt due to non-payment well, there goes your credit history!
    Originally posted by Anthorn

    You still seem to think that OFTM are entitled to take money against a direct debit mandate to which they are not entitled! I would positively relish them trying court action to recover a penalty from me, as I stated previously.


    So, please Anthorn, go and ROFL and this time don't stop rolling.
    • TransmitThis
    • By TransmitThis 15th Jan 19, 10:41 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    TransmitThis
    Reading what you wrote - they were entitled to take a DDebit, as you owed them money (10+)
    Reversing that goes against the contract you signed, so technically they could levi a charge.

    The fact they didn't properly work out how much you owed and reduce the DD to that specific amount is a totally separate issue, that just speaks to their lack of any proper procedures or professionalism.

    They keep taking DD till you no longer owe any money then work out the final bill and issue a refund.
    No One is saying it's a great way of doing things, honestly in this day and age it's practically barbaric not to have a more streamlined system, but it is what it is.
    • Steve456
    • By Steve456 16th Jan 19, 9:44 AM
    • 57 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    Steve456
    Reading what you wrote - they were entitled to take a DDebit, as you owed them money (10+)
    Reversing that goes against the contract you signed, so technically they could levi a charge.

    The fact they didn't properly work out how much you owed and reduce the DD to that specific amount is a totally separate issue, that just speaks to their lack of any proper procedures or professionalism.

    They keep taking DD till you no longer owe any money then work out the final bill and issue a refund.
    No One is saying it's a great way of doing things, honestly in this day and age it's practically barbaric not to have a more streamlined system, but it is what it is.
    Originally posted by TransmitThis

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    They may well be entitled to take money that is in accordance with the contract, but please explain how that could possibly include a payment in advance (which is what the agreement is for) including future energy supply AND "membership fee" when they already know that they are no longer your energy supplier.
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 16th Jan 19, 11:08 AM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 1,192 Thanks
    Anthorn
    You still seem to think that OFTM are entitled to take money against a direct debit mandate to which they are not entitled! I would positively relish them trying court action to recover a penalty from me, as I stated previously.


    So, please Anthorn, go and ROFL and this time don't stop rolling.
    Originally posted by Steve456
    I don't know why I have to keep saying this but here it is in a different way in the hope that it will be understood: If it's in the Ts&Cs which customers have agreed to then Outfox is fully entitled to it. It's a legal agreement.

    To recap, the only payment method is Direct Debit and customers who don't pay by Direct Debit are liable for a fee of 25 and Outfox are fully entitled to it.
    • Steve456
    • By Steve456 16th Jan 19, 11:30 AM
    • 57 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    Steve456
    I don't know why I have to keep saying this but here it is in a different way in the hope that it will be understood: If it's in the Ts&Cs which customers have agreed to then Outfox is fully entitled to it. It's a legal agreement.

    To recap, the only payment method is Direct Debit and customers who don't pay by Direct Debit are liable for a fee of 25 and Outfox are fully entitled to it.
    Originally posted by Anthorn

    A legal agreement which has ended (apart from any residual credit/debit balance). Where in the agreement does it say that OFTM can continue to take advance payments even when the contract has ended? I would love to see them try that one in court!
    • ben501
    • By ben501 16th Jan 19, 12:53 PM
    • 477 Posts
    • 804 Thanks
    ben501
    I don't know why I have to keep saying this but here it is in a different way in the hope that it will be understood: If it's in the Ts&Cs which customers have agreed to then Outfox is fully entitled to it. It's a legal agreement.

    To recap, the only payment method is Direct Debit and customers who don't pay by Direct Debit are liable for a fee of 25 and Outfox are fully entitled to it.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    You don't have to, and it's not true anyway.
    The T&C that we agreed to are not, for most customers, the ones currently available to view on their website. They were changed, and we were never informed. The 'your responsibility' bit in the last paragraph is BS. (if you found MSE had added a clause to their T&C saying that anyone using this site had to pay 25 a month for the privilege, along with an invoice for 50 to cover the period since it was introduced, would you pay?)


    https://web.archive.org/web/20181008172806/https://www.outfoxthemarket.co.uk/Terms-and-conditions.aspx is an earlier copy but there is even disagreement whether those were in place at the time of joining.
    Notice the lack of clause 22.8 amonst others). How can we have agreed to something we were never told about?
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