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  • FIRST POST
    • guy.pennington
    • By guy.pennington 9th Nov 18, 5:17 PM
    • 19Posts
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    guy.pennington
    American Golf Refund
    • #1
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:17 PM
    American Golf Refund 9th Nov 18 at 5:17 PM
    Hi,

    I am hoping somebody can advise me please.

    I returned a faulty pair of Nike Golf Shoes to American Golf as the waterproofing failed after 11 months (they have a 24 month Nike warranty).

    American Golf inspected the shoes and deemed them faulty, but no longer stock these shoes so issued a voucher to me for the full amount.

    I have stated that the voucher is of no use to me as I need to get the shoes replaced with like-for-like, so I requested a full refund, but American Golf are refusing to do this.

    So, can I insist on a refund and initiate a small claims case if they don't agree ?

    I paid for the original order by PayPal.

    Thanks.
Page 1
    • bris
    • By bris 9th Nov 18, 5:20 PM
    • 8,058 Posts
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    bris
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:20 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:20 PM
    Have you accepted the voucher?
    If so then you're to late. You need to reject any other offer and insist on the refund or take legal action if they refuse.
    • guy.pennington
    • By guy.pennington 9th Nov 18, 5:24 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    guy.pennington
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:24 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:24 PM
    Have you accepted the voucher?
    If so then you're to late. You need to reject any other offer and insist on the refund or take legal action if they refuse.
    Originally posted by bris
    Hi, no I did not accept the voucher. They issued the voucher by email without informing they were going to first. I immediately emailed them and said that the voucher was not acceptable, and that I wanted a replacement or refund.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 9th Nov 18, 5:46 PM
    • 12,997 Posts
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    unholyangel
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:46 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 18, 5:46 PM
    Hi, no I did not accept the voucher. They issued the voucher by email without informing they were going to first. I immediately emailed them and said that the voucher was not acceptable, and that I wanted a replacement or refund.
    Originally posted by guy.pennington
    Have they said why they're refusing?

    Remind them that under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 20 (16), they must give the refund using the same means of payment as the consumer used unless the consumer expressly agrees otherwise.

    And that under section 20(15), they are to refund without undue delay an in any event, within 14 days.

    Worth noting though that after 6 months, they can reduce the refund to account for use you had. So it doesn't need to be a full refund.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • guy.pennington
    • By guy.pennington 9th Nov 18, 6:03 PM
    • 19 Posts
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    guy.pennington
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 18, 6:03 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 18, 6:03 PM
    Have they said why they're refusing?

    Remind them that under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 20 (16), they must give the refund using the same means of payment as the consumer used unless the consumer expressly agrees otherwise.

    And that under section 20(15), they are to refund without undue delay an in any event, within 14 days.

    Worth noting though that after 6 months, they can reduce the refund to account for use you had. So it doesn't need to be a full refund.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Thanks, that is very useful info, I will quote this to them.

    The reason they gave is that it is their policy to either replace or issued a voucher, and since they no longer have stock they have issued a voucher instead.

    I paid by PayPay, but the underlying funding source was a credit card which I no longer have, but I presume the refund would go back to my PayPay account in any case so it shouldn't matter that I no longer have the original credit card ?
    • deanos
    • By deanos 9th Nov 18, 6:18 PM
    • 10,854 Posts
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    deanos
    • #6
    • 9th Nov 18, 6:18 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Nov 18, 6:18 PM
    paypal refunds to original source so it will go back to credit card
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 9th Nov 18, 7:46 PM
    • 3,219 Posts
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    George Michael
    • #7
    • 9th Nov 18, 7:46 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Nov 18, 7:46 PM
    What has been stated above only applies if you are claiming under your statutory rights and as you mentioned claiming on the Nike 2 year warranty, how you receive your refund will depend on the T&C's of that warranty.

    If you want to claim using your Consumer rights act rights, American Golf could insist that you prove that the waterproofing failed because of a manufacturing defect (it's unlikely that they will ask for this proof now), and as unholyangel mentioned, the retailer is entitled to reduce the refund from the original price you paid.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 9th Nov 18, 8:55 PM
    • 12,997 Posts
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    unholyangel
    • #8
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:55 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:55 PM
    What has been stated above only applies if you are claiming under your statutory rights and as you mentioned claiming on the Nike 2 year warranty, how you receive your refund will depend on the T&C's of that warranty.

    If you want to claim using your Consumer rights act rights, American Golf could insist that you prove that the waterproofing failed because of a manufacturing defect (it's unlikely that they will ask for this proof now), and as unholyangel mentioned, the retailer is entitled to reduce the refund from the original price you paid.
    Originally posted by George Michael
    I think perhaps you've misread OP (or I've missed info elsewhere in the thread). OP does state they came with a 2 year warranty from nike but from what OP has said, the goods were returned to, inspected and deemed faulty by the retailer, not nike.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 9th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    • 3,219 Posts
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    George Michael
    • #9
    • 9th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Nov 18, 9:08 PM
    OP does state they came with a 2 year warranty from nike but from what OP has said, the goods were returned to, inspected and deemed faulty by the retailer, not nike.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    If the Nike UK warranty has the same conditions as the US, the return could still be a warranty claim.
    In the US, provided that the shoes were purchased from an authorised reseller, Nike allow you to return the shoes to the place of purchase and the seller is allowed to determine if the faulty goods qualify for a warranty claim.


    To be absolutely certain of the OP's rights, they need to confirm what they told American Golf and what was stated to them.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 9th Nov 18, 9:31 PM
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    unholyangel
    If the Nike UK warranty has the same conditions as the US, the return could still be a warranty claim.
    In the US, provided that the shoes were purchased from an authorised reseller, Nike allow you to return the shoes to the place of purchase and the seller is allowed to determine if the faulty goods qualify for a warranty claim.


    To be absolutely certain of the OP's rights, they need to confirm what they told American Golf and what was stated to them.
    Originally posted by George Michael
    But in the UK, a guarantee cannot operate as an exclusion clause in a consumer contract - it can't be used to lessen or remove your statutory rights.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 10th Nov 18, 11:43 AM
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    George Michael
    But in the UK, a guarantee cannot operate as an exclusion clause in a consumer contract - it can't be used to lessen or remove your statutory rights.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    I agree, and I've not stated otherwise.
    What was it that you stated earlier?
    I think perhaps you've misread OP (or I've missed info elsewhere in the thread)
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    There has been nothing written or implied saying that American golf have refused to allow to OP to claim on their statutory rights.

    If the OP went into the store and stated something such as:
    "I purchased these shoes 10 months ago and the waterproofing has failed and as Nike offer a 2 year guarantee, I would like them replaced"
    then the store staff haven't lessened or removed any statutory rights as those rights are still there should the OP chose to use them.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 10th Nov 18, 5:05 PM
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    unholyangel
    I agree, and I've not stated otherwise.
    What was it that you stated earlier?

    There has been nothing written or implied saying that American golf have refused to allow to OP to claim on their statutory rights.

    If the OP went into the store and stated something such as:
    "I purchased these shoes 10 months ago and the waterproofing has failed and as Nike offer a 2 year guarantee, I would like them replaced"
    then the store staff haven't lessened or removed any statutory rights as those rights are still there should the OP chose to use them.
    Originally posted by George Michael
    So theoretically, if this was a claim under warranty......why - after the shoes have been deemed faulty by the retailer - is OP only being offered a voucher when their statutory rights are for a refund by the same method of payment they used?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 10th Nov 18, 5:36 PM
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    George Michael
    So theoretically, if this was a claim under warranty......why - after the shoes have been deemed faulty by the retailer - is OP only being offered a voucher when their statutory rights are for a refund by the same method of payment they used?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    I don't understand your point.
    You start off by referring to a warranty claim and end up by mentioning the OP's statutory rights.
    If the OP claimed under the manufacturers warranty, the retailer is under no legal obligation to inform the OP of their statutory rights. They can't refuse to honour those rights or mislead anyone about them but if someone stated they wished to claim under the warranty, there is no reason why a retailer has to do anything else.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Nov 18, 8:05 PM
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    unholyangel
    I don't understand your point.
    You start off by referring to a warranty claim and end up by mentioning the OP's statutory rights.
    If the OP claimed under the manufacturers warranty, the retailer is under no legal obligation to inform the OP of their statutory rights. They can't refuse to honour those rights or mislead anyone about them but if someone stated they wished to claim under the warranty, there is no reason why a retailer has to do anything else.
    Originally posted by George Michael
    You said there has been nothing written or implied that AG has refused OP their statutory rights. I said why are AG telling OP they can't get a refund on goods they themselves have deemed to be faulty then? If thats not refusing statutory rights, what is?

    Again, a warranty cannot be used to lessen or restrict your statutory rights. So even if you do initially claim on warranty, if the goods subsequently prove to be faulty then you cant be prohibited from exercising your statutory rights - that would be the guarantee/warranty operating as an exclusion clause.

    And while they don't have to tell you your legal rights, they cannot mislead you into thinking you don't have those rights - such as by telling you youre only entitled to claim under warranty, only entitled to a voucher and not a refund etc.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 11th Nov 18, 10:02 PM
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    George Michael
    You said there has been nothing written or implied that AG has refused OP their statutory rights. I said why are AG telling OP they can't get a refund on goods they themselves have deemed to be faulty then? If thats not refusing statutory rights, what is?
    Because unless the OP informed the retailer that they wanted a refund in accordance with their statutory rights and simply said that they wanted a warranty resolution, they haven't been misled.

    Again, a warranty cannot be used to lessen or restrict your statutory rights. So even if you do initially claim on warranty, if the goods subsequently prove to be faulty then you cant be prohibited from exercising your statutory rights -
    True, the OP isn't prohibited from this provided that they actually make a request in the first place.
    that would be the guarantee/warranty operating as an exclusion clause.

    And while they don't have to tell you your legal rights, they cannot mislead you into thinking you don't have those rights - such as by telling you youre only entitled to claim under warranty, only entitled to a voucher and not a refund etc.
    But did the retailer say this? They may have simply been doing as the OP requested and processed a warranty claim.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    If I go into a shop with faulty goods and say that those goods came with a warranty and I wish to claim under that warranty, that is all that the retailer has to do.
    However, if I go in and state that I wish to get a resolution under the CRA, then what the retailer has to do is to follow the requirements of that act.

    I think I'll draw a line under this here as I don't think we will agree on this and it's pointless having it going to and from for days/weeks to come!
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Nov 18, 10:33 PM
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    unholyangel
    If I go into a shop with faulty goods and say that those goods came with a warranty and I wish to claim under that warranty, that is all that the retailer has to do.
    However, if I go in and state that I wish to get a resolution under the CRA, then what the retailer has to do is to follow the requirements of that act.

    I think I'll draw a line under this here as I don't think we will agree on this and it's pointless having it going to and from for days/weeks to come!
    Originally posted by George Michael
    The goods are faulty by the retailers own admission. They cannot provide a repair or replacement. OP has requested a refund - as is their statutory right where repair or replacement is impossible. Retailer has refused this.

    Even if the retailer is refusing on the basis of it being a warranty claim then (again) that warranty is operating as an exclusion clause.

    Your statutory rights always apply - not just when you're aware of them.

    5.11.1 A guarantee or warranty might be worded in such a way that, if successfully
    relied on, it would leave consumers less well able to seek redress, in the
    event of default by the trader, than they would be under Part 1 of the Act or
    the general law. Using of wording of this kind will raise the same concerns
    as exclusion or limitation clauses can do (see paragraphs 5.2.1 to 5.2.10).

    5.11.2 There is no objection to guarantees or warranties that simply enlarge the
    scope of the consumer’s ordinary legal rights – for example, by offering
    refunds or exchanges on a no-fault basis, or offering repairs regardless of
    the cause of the problem. But sometimes guarantees or warranties offer
    more limited rights than are available under the law, either because the
    benefits are less, or because their availability is made subject to special
    conditions or restrictions. These are highly likely to be unfair and blacklisted
    if they could have the effect of reducing the benefit provided to consumers
    by their legal protections
    .

    5.11.3 Certain fundamental legal rights are treated as included in all consumer
    contracts by Part 1 of the Act. In general, these statutory rights cannot be
    excluded by any form of contractual wording or notice – see above, in part
    4 of the guidance on blacklisted terms. But inappropriately restrictive
    guarantees may still be challenged as unfair, particularly if they could
    deprive consumers of other legal protections. Such wording is also likely to
    mislead consumers into assuming that it represents the full extent of their
    rights, and cause them to refrain from exercising their statutory rights,
    which may be actionable as a breach of the CPRs
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • guy.pennington
    • By guy.pennington 12th Nov 18, 8:24 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    guy.pennington
    Thanks for your help and the interesting debate. I'm not really too sure if I am technically claiming a refund under warranty or statutory rights, I just want a refund, and it sounds like I am entitled to one, one way or another.

    I am awaiting AG response to my latest rebuff of their voucher offer and I will if necessary quote the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and raise a small claim court action.
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 13th Nov 18, 8:52 AM
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    pmduk
    How much are these shoes worth before we start talking about the small claims process?
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Nov 18, 8:56 AM
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    DoaM
    For guaranteed waterproof Nike golf shoes you're probably looking at £80+ as a starting point.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
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