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  • FIRST POST
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 7th Nov 18, 11:22 AM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    Debit cards
    • #1
    • 7th Nov 18, 11:22 AM
    Debit cards 7th Nov 18 at 11:22 AM
    Who am I banking with? High street bank or Visa? I have just learnt from my bank that they have to obey Visa rules. Visa have the power to give my debit card details to Amazon, ApplePay and possibly others without my permission. There does not appear to be a customer 'switch' for this. I only found out by chance. It may have been in the news; it may have been in existence for some time; either way I would like to be the one who controls where my details go.
Page 1
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 7th Nov 18, 12:17 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    • #2
    • 7th Nov 18, 12:17 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Nov 18, 12:17 PM
    Who am I banking with? High street bank or Visa? I have just learnt from my bank that they have to obey Visa rules. Visa have the power to give my debit card details to Amazon, ApplePay and possibly others without my permission. There does not appear to be a customer 'switch' for this. I only found out by chance. It may have been in the news; it may have been in existence for some time; either way I would like to be the one who controls where my details go.
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    Few banks operate their own debit-card systems, it is far too expensive and inefficient. They usually outsource to one of the card processing companies - like VISA or MasterCard etc.

    As such they'll have to abide by the contract terms to use the service - as we all have to with any service we use.

    What do you mean by "give my debit card details to Amazon" ? VISA aren't going to just contact companies and send them the card details of random people.
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 7th Nov 18, 12:38 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    • #3
    • 7th Nov 18, 12:38 PM
    Debit Cards
    • #3
    • 7th Nov 18, 12:38 PM
    Amazon and ApplePay are showing my replacement Debit card details before I have received them myself. Discussing this with my banks security unit yesterday, they read out the Visa terms which allows them to do this.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 7th Nov 18, 1:14 PM
    • 4,637 Posts
    • 1,485 Thanks
    Heng Leng
    • #4
    • 7th Nov 18, 1:14 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Nov 18, 1:14 PM
    IF you don't want a debit card then ask for an ATM card - but this will probably use either Plus/Visa or Cirrus/Mastercard for non-UK ATM network.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 7th Nov 18, 1:17 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 18, 1:17 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 18, 1:17 PM
    Sounds like "Visa Account Updater"

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jan/12/how-amazon-know-new-visa-card-information-before-me-natwest

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3228658

    You *should* be able to opt out of it, via your bank.
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 7th Nov 18, 2:21 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 18, 2:21 PM
    Debit Card
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 18, 2:21 PM
    I don't mind debit cards; I just want to own full control of them.
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 7th Nov 18, 2:23 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 18, 2:23 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 18, 2:23 PM
    My bank tell me they cannot operate an opt out scenario. They have to comply with Visa rules
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 7th Nov 18, 3:02 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 18, 3:02 PM
    Debit Cards
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 18, 3:02 PM
    Just followed those links thank you Ergates and clearly what goes around comes around. It is quite old news in fact although it completely passed me by until this year.

    I think what I really need is for Visa/my bank to send me a list of all accounts they automatically update. This would help with memory problems if I forget where the details have been used and/or for an executor to use in the case of serious illness etc.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 7th Nov 18, 6:24 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 18, 6:24 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 18, 6:24 PM
    My bank tell me they cannot operate an opt out scenario. They have to comply with Visa rules
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    From reading around it though- the VISA rules *do* allow opt-out. Sounds like it's just your bank being lazy.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 7th Nov 18, 6:24 PM
    • 25,310 Posts
    • 12,542 Thanks
    jonesMUFCforever
    Just followed those links thank you Ergates and clearly what goes around comes around. It is quite old news in fact although it completely passed me by until this year.

    I think what I really need is for Visa/my bank to send me a list of all accounts they automatically update. This would help with memory problems if I forget where the details have been used and/or for an executor to use in the case of serious illness etc.
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    Your bank won't know who you have set up a continuous payment authority with - only you know (or forget).
    If you don't want your bank to update your details it is simple - cancel all of them - then they can't touch your money.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 7th Nov 18, 6:50 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    Your bank won't know who you have set up a continuous payment authority with - only you know (or forget).
    If you don't want your bank to update your details it is simple - cancel all of them - then they can't touch your money.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    The bank aren't updating any details - it's a service offered by VISA to retailers. The only part the bank have to play in this is that it should be possible to opt out of the scheme - which is done via the bank.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 7th Nov 18, 8:29 PM
    • 703 Posts
    • 562 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    To clarify, you bank with your bank - not with Visa; Visa knows nothing about you personally. Visa is essentially a transaction processing company that facilitates the interchange of payments between processing banks' retailers and issuing banks' cardholders.

    Banks 'buy-in' to become members of Visa and can then issue cards with the Visa brand and sign up retailers to accept such cards. Member banks then have the collective power (size-dependent) to create rules and operating principles for such things as card-acceptance devices, card technology, dispute rules, card updaters etc etc but only if there is agreement within the membership. That said, in a previous thread some posters suggested membership rights no longer worked like this.

    Back in the 80s, 90s and early noughties Continuous Payment Authorities used to cause major headaches for everyone, especially when account numbers changed. An account updater service was being talked about when I left the cards' industry in 2004 but I don't know exactly how it works and so can't comment specifically. However, only your bank knows when it has changed your account number, so any input into the updater service can surely only come from them.

    It is true that your bank won't necessarily know the retailers with whom you have active Continuous Payment Authorities but they are able to identify Recurring Transactions from authorisation requests and when they are processed to your account and can tag your account in order to make use of the updater service if needed.

    I would imagine that front-office staff in many issuers will have little knowledge of this service and you'd need to get in touch with someone in the back-office or disputes section for advice on the opt-out process.
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 9th Nov 18, 10:49 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    Thank you all, Visa have just emailed me stating they do not have account details and it is the bank I should talk to
    Continuous Payment Authorities might be in operation with my Amazon account which has been around for awhile now but not on my ApplePay account because although it is setup on my iphone, I have never, ever used it for any payment anywhere which was also updated without any input from me.
    I will follow up further with my bank and Visa and hopefully get an answer soon.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 9th Nov 18, 3:00 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    Thank you all, Visa have just emailed me stating they do not have account details and it is the bank I should talk to
    Continuous Payment Authorities might be in operation with my Amazon account which has been around for awhile now but not on my ApplePay account because although it is setup on my iphone, I have never, ever used it for any payment anywhere which was also updated without any input from me.
    I will follow up further with my bank and Visa and hopefully get an answer soon.
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    Let us know how you get on - it would be useful to know if banks are actually willing to let people opt out.
    • meer53
    • By meer53 10th Nov 18, 9:01 AM
    • 9,322 Posts
    • 13,585 Thanks
    meer53
    Amazon and ApplePay are showing my replacement Debit card details before I have received them myself. Discussing this with my banks security unit yesterday, they read out the Visa terms which allows them to do this.
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    Why do you think this is bad ? Surely it saves you having to update them with the new card number ?

    If you don't want the card details to be on Amazon or ApplePay, just delete them ?
    • HounslowBoy
    • By HounslowBoy 12th Nov 18, 9:58 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    HounslowBoy
    Emailed Visa the links that Ergates posted - Visa replied as before that they do not have account details and pointed me back to the bank.
    I have now logged a complaint with the bank who replied this morning with a reference number and note to say they have passed it onto the department they believe best to answer it. I will update you on and when I get an answer which may be by post because the bank also stated they would not reply by email for security.
    Why do I think this is bad? meer53 - mixed feelings here. I suspect it suits a lot of people which is why it is happening. Even here though it would be useful if whoever updates these accounts were to send a list of such accounts to the card holder..
    For me though, I really want to be the only one who gives out my card details as and when I use them. If I stop using or forgotten an account it would close down automatically when the card is renewed. As it is I only know of Amazon and ApplePay, there may be others and I do not want to run a book on how many accounts I've used in the life of a card.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 12th Nov 18, 3:10 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    Emailed Visa the links that Ergates posted - Visa replied as before that they do not have account details and pointed me back to the bank.
    I have now logged a complaint with the bank who replied this morning with a reference number and note to say they have passed it onto the department they believe best to answer it. I will update you on and when I get an answer which may be by post because the bank also stated they would not reply by email for security.
    Why do I think this is bad? meer53 - mixed feelings here. I suspect it suits a lot of people which is why it is happening. Even here though it would be useful if whoever updates these accounts were to send a list of such accounts to the card holder..
    For me though, I really want to be the only one who gives out my card details as and when I use them. If I stop using or forgotten an account it would close down automatically when the card is renewed. As it is I only know of Amazon and ApplePay, there may be others and I do not want to run a book on how many accounts I've used in the life of a card.
    Originally posted by HounslowBoy
    They don't have your *account* details, but surely they must have your *card* details - how else could they transactions. And it's the card details (card number, expiry dates etc) that have been updated. Sounds like you and VISA might be talking at cross-purposes.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 12th Nov 18, 3:17 PM
    • 703 Posts
    • 562 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    There might be some confusion here as to when the card updater works.

    If an online/MOTO business holds your card details (Amazon, Moonpig, Sainsbury's, Tesco etc etc) to ease your check-out experience when you buy stuff, that is not a Continuous Payment Authority and the account updater will not be applied to those situations (as far as I am aware). Each time you make a transaction in this scenario you will probably be asked to re-enter your 3-digit CVV2; this shows that each transaction is separate and unrelated.

    It is only where you have given a retailer permission to periodically charge your card for services/goods that are being continually rendered/supplied that the updater will be applied. E.g. a magazine subscription, insurance paid in instalments. Those transactions will have a Recurring Transaction Indicator included in the auth/clearing message so your issuer will know you have them. As stated before, though, your issuer won't know if you ever cancel them with the retailer, so they may still provide updates even when your subscription has ended.
    • Uxb
    • By Uxb 12th Nov 18, 3:21 PM
    • 1,237 Posts
    • 1,353 Thanks
    Uxb
    Thank goodness they do continuously update!
    The very last thing I want is for my annual car insurance continuous authority credit card payment not to go through because I had forgotten that the card ran out during the year resulting in the car being suddenly uninsured.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 12th Nov 18, 9:12 PM
    • 230 Posts
    • 300 Thanks
    Ergates
    Thank goodness they do continuously update!
    The very last thing I want is for my annual car insurance continuous authority credit card payment not to go through because I had forgotten that the card ran out during the year resulting in the car being suddenly uninsured.
    Originally posted by Uxb
    If that happens, the insurer should contact you before the previous policy expires.
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