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    • MSE Andrew
      Verified User verified user
    • By MSE Andrew Verified User verified user 6th Nov 18, 8:36 AM
    • 91Posts
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    MSE Andrew
    MSE News: Energy prices will NOT be capped at £1,137/yr, says Martin
    • #1
    • 6th Nov 18, 8:36 AM
    MSE News: Energy prices will NOT be capped at £1,137/yr, says Martin 6th Nov 18 at 8:36 AM
    The energy price cap announced today is "misnamed" and is NOT an indication of the maximum amount householders will pay, Martin Lewis has warned...
    Read the full story:
    'Energy prices will NOT be capped at £1,137/yr, says Martin'

    Click reply below to discuss. If you havenít already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Andrew; 06-11-2018 at 2:35 PM.
Page 2
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 7th Nov 18, 11:46 AM
    • 6,542 Posts
    • 4,197 Thanks
    Hengus
    I'm not sure how this capping would apply to those on E7/10 tariffs - which rates will be capped normal or cheap rates or both?
    Originally posted by Consumerist
    In 2013, Ofgem introduced QUOTE a major package of reforms aimed to make the market Ďsimpler, clearer and fairerí for consumers. UNQUOTE

    Five years on, the domestic energy market is shrouded in a fog of consumer confusion and mistrust. It really is time that the Government took a hard look at whether Ofgem is actually fit for purpose.
    • Consumerist
    • By Consumerist 7th Nov 18, 11:51 AM
    • 4,957 Posts
    • 2,466 Thanks
    Consumerist
    . . . It really is time that the Government took a hard look at whether Ofgem is actually fit for purpose.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Well, on that issue I'm with you.
    Warning: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    • hammers81uk
    • By hammers81uk 7th Nov 18, 12:00 PM
    • 108 Posts
    • 363 Thanks
    hammers81uk
    That is understandable, iv edited it to reflect that.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 7th Nov 18, 12:01 PM
    • 19,572 Posts
    • 13,768 Thanks
    molerat
    I'm not sure how this capping would apply to those on E7/10 tariffs - which rates will be capped normal or cheap rates or both?
    Originally posted by Consumerist
    Somewhere in the document is a % split figure for the cap to be based on.
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    • Consumerist
    • By Consumerist 7th Nov 18, 12:06 PM
    • 4,957 Posts
    • 2,466 Thanks
    Consumerist
    That is understandable, iv edited it to reflect that.
    Originally posted by hammers81uk
    Far better if you had deleted the post altogether. It may, anyway, be reported by anyone finding your soliciting objectionable.
    Warning: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 7th Nov 18, 2:07 PM
    • 7,882 Posts
    • 21,228 Thanks
    EachPenny
    What is surprising, well at least to me, is how low the multi-register typical value is at 4200 kwhs/year. I would have thought that a typical E7/E10 user would use a lot more electricity - but what do I know?
    Originally posted by Hengus
    It certainly looks a bit iffy. One very simplistic interpretation of the figures might lead to the conclusion that heating/cooking with gas is only 10% efficient.

    I suspect it is possible the figures are skewed because electrically heated properties tend to be smaller and therefore have a lower total energy consumption for heating purposes? (and perhaps because the perceived higher costs of electric heating cause people to use less?)

    The figures will also be affected by the very many people like me who have a dual-rate meter but use other energy sources (gas/oil/coal/wood) for part (or the the majority) of their space heating requirements.

    It would be a false assumption to think that everyone with a dual-rate meter relies on electricity for their heating.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 7th Nov 18, 9:20 PM
    • 3,890 Posts
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    matelodave
    I would have thought that you have to use the 3100kw at the peak rate PLUS 4200kwh at the off peak which would equate to about 7300kwh per year.

    In the end the laws of thermodynamics come into play and a kwh has the same effect whether it's produced by gas, electric or even half a tree.

    If it takes 12000kwh to heat the house and hot water using gas then even taking all the inefficiencies into account I'd doubt that you'd get away with a great deal less than 10,000kwh or leccy.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
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    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 8th Nov 18, 9:23 AM
    • 553 Posts
    • 240 Thanks
    wavelets
    What is surprising, well at least to me, is how low the multi-register typical value is at 4200 kwhs/year. I would have thought that a typical E7/E10 user would use a lot more electricity - but what do I know?
    Originally posted by Hengus
    You'll be surprised how many properties have E7 meters that use surprisingly low quantities of electricity e.g. because they also have gas

    We have E7 and gas central heating, and so use significantly less than 4200kWh/year of electricity

    And just to skew the average figures even more, we have control of another property (unoccuppied) fitted with E7 metering (and gas central heating) that used less than 100kWh of electricity last year.
    • Baptist
    • By Baptist 8th Nov 18, 8:57 PM
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    Baptist
    As BULB only have one tariff - would we be classed as being on the "Standard Tariff" ?

    How do I establish if I am a "typical user"
    ?
    One of the reasons I am trying to work through this issue - is that BULB have mailed to tell me they have decided to increase my payment and at the moment even on a worse / best case scenario I think they have gone at least £10 per month to much.

    (I have ended up at my anniversary in credit and am totally happy to have that roll over)
    • gsmlnx
    • By gsmlnx 8th Nov 18, 9:10 PM
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    gsmlnx
    As BULB only have one tariff - would we be classed as being on the "Standard Tariff" ?
    Originally posted by Baptist
    From the news article
    This means a typical user on a standard or default tariff
    So as Bulb only have a default tariff (there is only one tariff) then the rules will apply.
    Also the cap is on the energy unit price so applies to all users, typical or otherwise.
    So higher users will still pay more than a typical user.

    Suggest you read the article for more https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/11/energy-prices-will-be-capped--regulator-confirms/
    Last edited by gsmlnx; 08-11-2018 at 9:12 PM. Reason: Add URL for article
    • jcontest
    • By jcontest 9th Nov 18, 12:43 AM
    • 94 Posts
    • 552 Thanks
    jcontest
    As BULB only have one tariff - would we be classed as being on the "Standard Tariff" ?

    How do I establish if I am a "typical user"
    ?
    One of the reasons I am trying to work through this issue - is that BULB have mailed to tell me they have decided to increase my payment and at the moment even on a worse / best case scenario I think they have gone at least £10 per month to much.

    (I have ended up at my anniversary in credit and am totally happy to have that roll over)
    Originally posted by Baptist

    Bulb states they have one tariff.
    Bulb does say it can vary region to region.
    Their Website says 3,100 KWH Electricity and 12,000 KWH Gas cost £1003.


    £1,137 is the cap. They are under the cap, so their prices are okay.


    Basically you should read the rest of the thread, and the news item it is attached to. There is a price cap, but it is a per unit price cap based on 3,100 KWH Electricity, 12,000 KWH Gas, and £1,137.


    Bulb is an idea that is a failure. Not because it's a bad idea, but because consumers are idiots. As long as a big company can use a loss-leading product to pull someone in who will then stay on for 5 years paying way over the odds, then single "fair" tariff providers will never look good on price comparison sites. Bulb customers will not see a price drop due to this "cap". Non-Bulb customers will see a price increase due to this "cap". Also expect standing charges to start changing a lot, as energy providers will work to maximize profits.
    • newmover
    • By newmover 9th Nov 18, 12:14 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    newmover
    and yet this article is useless in itself because it doesn't state how or by how much the cap is going to be implemented, despite the information being out there.

    you'd think you'd get your own house in order before trying to rubbish articles on other sites.
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 9th Nov 18, 12:38 PM
    • 553 Posts
    • 240 Thanks
    wavelets
    ...
    One of the reasons I am trying to work through this issue - is that BULB have mailed to tell me they have decided to increase my payment and at the moment even on a worse / best case scenario I think they have gone at least £10 per month to much. ...
    Originally posted by Baptist
    If you think it's an unfair amount, challenge it
    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/lower-energy-direct-debits/

    As indicated above, the price cap which does not come into force until next year probably has nothing to do with the increased payment you are expected to make.

    But perhaps the third price rise this year by your supplier does
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 9th Nov 18, 1:33 PM
    • 3,995 Posts
    • 1,069 Thanks
    Anthorn
    and yet this article is useless in itself because it doesn't state how or by how much the cap is going to be implemented, despite the information being out there.

    you'd think you'd get your own house in order before trying to rubbish articles on other sites.
    Originally posted by newmover
    That can only be done if everyone without exception uses the same amount of energy. As the article correctly states, it's a cap on rates (prices)and not the total amount that can be charged.

    The information is not "out there" because it doesn't start until next year and what suppliers will do is not clear. At this time we have for example Ebico taking a rather peevish attitude by withdrawing the tariff which would have been subject to the cap and SSE while pointing to the current competition model appears to be complying:
    http://sse.com/newsandviews/allarticles/2018/09/sse-comments-on-the-default-tariff-cap-statutory-consultation/
    • molerat
    • By molerat 9th Nov 18, 1:43 PM
    • 19,572 Posts
    • 13,768 Thanks
    molerat
    and yet this article is useless in itself because it doesn't state how or by how much the cap is going to be implemented, despite the information being out there.

    you'd think you'd get your own house in order before trying to rubbish articles on other sites.
    Originally posted by newmover
    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2018/11/default_tariff_cap_level_-_01_january_2019_-_31_march_2019.pdf gives the rates for each area. Still quite a lot of wiggle room for the suppliers to manipulate the SC and unit rates to their benefit as long as the overall cost does not exceed the caps for the specified use. Even if you do have the exact specified use the cap is not that figure quoted as that is an average based on all the different region caps.
    Originally posted by molerat
    A press article cannot give the full picture without resorting many pages and simply quotes an average of the UK wide caps. The table linked in my above quote gives how much the cap will be in each region and, as I posted, there is plenty of wiggle room for suppliers to set a tariff to best suit their bottom line. If you want to shout at someone it should be OFGEM as they are the ones that produce these broad headline grabbing sound bites.
    Last edited by molerat; 09-11-2018 at 1:46 PM.
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    • Consumerist
    • By Consumerist 9th Nov 18, 2:21 PM
    • 4,957 Posts
    • 2,466 Thanks
    Consumerist
    Vat
    Anyone know whether the rates quoted in the pdf document include VAT or not?
    Warning: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 9th Nov 18, 5:53 PM
    • 7,882 Posts
    • 21,228 Thanks
    EachPenny
    The information is not "out there" because it doesn't start until next year and what suppliers will do is not clear. At this time we have for example Ebico taking a rather peevish attitude by withdrawing the tariff which would have been subject to the cap and SSE while pointing to the current competition model appears to be complying:
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    How is this 'peevish'?

    Ofgem are the one introducing the cap which will have negative consequences for many customers, which means Ebico have to react by changing their tarifs to comply with the capping requirements.

    They have done so using a logical approach - by introducing a cap-compliant tarif and a second tarif which maintains the features of the original non-compliant tarif.

    Customers are being inconvenienced by having to opt in to maintain the same broad charging strategy, but that is thanks to Ofgem and the Government, and is not something Ebico are to blame for.

    No doubt some customers of other companies will be similarly affected once they start making the adjustments required for the new capping regime.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
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