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    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 1st Nov 18, 12:54 PM
    • 74Posts
    • 23Thanks
    bennjiboy
    HELP PLEASE - Do I need to act on a Letter of Claim BW Legal?
    • #1
    • 1st Nov 18, 12:54 PM
    HELP PLEASE - Do I need to act on a Letter of Claim BW Legal? 1st Nov 18 at 12:54 PM
    Hi, had a thread open back in 2015 but its now closed.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5383105

    UK Parking Patrol office sent an NTK for parking at Newcastle Airport, it was appealed and rejected under a ridiculous procedure and kangaroo court.

    Letter states that UKPPO have instructed bw legal to commence legal action in the form of issuing a claim against in the county court. have until 2 december to respond and if no response then they are instructed to issue a claim against us in the county court without further notice.

    payment of £160 required by 2nd december to avoid the above legal action.

    Question - is this something i need to reply to or is it just another one for the "file" pile?

    Thank you!
    Last edited by bennjiboy; 02-11-2018 at 1:57 PM.
Page 2
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 2nd Nov 18, 6:42 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    thanks again everyone, draft letter below, not used a template just going on facts - comments appreciated. Sorry if its long, i get carried away :-)

    Dear Sir

    In response to your Letter of Claim to XXXX date XXXX your reference XXXX please find this response to deny all liability to the debt.

    As you have stated, you have been instructed by UK Parking Patrol Office Limited to commence legal action, we look forward to the court hearing and presenting all the evidence to show that the invoice is invalid and the claim be dismissed.

    Evidence includes:
    • In response to the original appeal in January 2016, the adjudicator stated the following facts:
    o If the Appellant parks within sight of the sign the terms of the sign apply to where they are parked.
    • They then go on to state:
    o I agree there is no sign in sight of the driver at the time of stopping.
    • Furthermore, they state
    o I cannot see on the Appellant’s evidence where they are parked.
    • Regarding the place of the alleged parking, this was on the entrance to the DoubleTree Hotel. We requested evidence that this land is covered by the alleged contract between UKPP and the landowner. The response on the appeal is below, we once again hereby request this information
    o There is no evidence who owns the land.
    • The adjudicator also states that the signs DO NOT have to identify a boundary – surely this is illegal practice?

    Based on these 5 statement alone, this case would be dismissed immediately in court and we will put forward a counter claim for loss of earning and expenses of attending a court hearing.

    During this appeal in January 2016, we requested a copy of the contract between UK Parking Patrol Office and the landowner. In order for this to be fully investigated a full and unredacted copy has been requested, and by way of this letter we request this once again.

    There are numerous other issues which make this debt unenforceable which will be put forward during any court hearing.

    An SAR has been requested on the 2/11/2018 to UKPP of which they have 1 month to reply.

    We also have the following questions which remain unanswered from the original appeal in January 2016. Please provide full and complete answers to the following questions to allow a full response to this alleged debt.
    1. Is UKPPO a legal entity and trading company as the Creditor is not identified? Its impossible to contract with an unidentified entity.
    2. Supreme court PE vs Beavis: Supreme court ruled that a parking charge contract is a genuine offer, that once the signs are read and the driver parks and leaves the car they have accepted the contract.
    In this instance the driver spent few seconds on the site in which time they read the contract offer , declined the offer to contract and left the site without parking. The offer to contract can only be formed by performance which involves reading the sign and making a decision to accept, the offer to decline is also a lawful option. The offer to contract was declined and no performance of the contractual terms was carried out as the driver left the site within few seconds after studying the offer and deciding to decline the offer. Therefore Beavis Vs PE supreme court stands in this case.
    No contract was entered.
    3. The signs you claim to have are obviously not readable from a moving vehicle when in an airport environment. Notwithstanding the fact that you would need to be stationary to read any sign is in itself a dangerous maneuver on a public road. Therefore by this fact, a driver needs to stop to read a sign.
    4. Do UKPPO have the authority to enforce byelaws as byelaws aren't in effect where the incident took place as Road Traffic Enactments already apply there, and this is clearly referenced in the byelaws themselves. Please send a fully signed and stamped copy of the said byelaws.
    5. Bylaws are common law offences; they can only be tried at a Magistrates court and reported by a police constable. They are not statutory offences which can be reported by persons authorized by the secretary of state under devolved powers such as civil enforcement officers example, a dog fouling warden. A private parking company cannot enforce any by-law as they are not sworn to oath to HRH The Queen as a police constable is, so this accusation is actually quite ridiculous to say the least
    6. Regarding the byelaws, please provide evidence that the byelaws overrule Road Traffic Legislation as the Road Traffic Legislation applies to the airport roads landside areas by virtue the public has access to them.
    7. UKPPO have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA under the auspices of this being in relation to a PARKING incident, please provide evidence to show the vehicle was “Parked” as at no time did a “Parking” incident occur.
    8. The alleged incident of parking occurred in the driveway to the DoubleTree Hotel, not on double red lines, nor on a yellow box junction. There is no evidence to suggest that this is part of the roads covered by your contract with NIAL, and no signage within that driveway into the hotel which is owned and operated by the hotel and not NIAL. Despite this, the vehicle did not park for any period, merely stopped for a few seconds. As your photos show, the car was at no point parked in the 20 seconds you show, nor did it park at all at the Airport.
    9. Please provide full details of your contract with NIAL, signed and stamped, evidencing the legality of your invoice.
    10. Please provide full details of the calculation of the £60 charge, along with details of how this figure was arrived at, in conjunction with the Bylaws you suggest in your letter. The demand for a payment of £60 is punitive, unreasonable, exceeds an appropriate amount, and has no relationship to the loss that would have been suffered by the Landowner.
    11. Does UKPPO have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question regarding the driveway into the Hilton Doubletree?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 2nd Nov 18, 6:48 PM
    • 3,794 Posts
    • 6,265 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Show us the paperwork. All the above is nonsense without a reference point, Steve.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 3rd Nov 18, 9:12 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    this link has the recent letter from BW - is this what you need?

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0hxmq6jdarn6usb/AABAGv720SzMIH5UU-iBcdosa?dl=0
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 3rd Nov 18, 9:15 AM
    • 38,042 Posts
    • 22,139 Thanks
    Quentin
    Are your initals **?
    Last edited by Quentin; 03-11-2018 at 9:46 AM.
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 3rd Nov 18, 9:26 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    yes thats right Quentin but im not RK or driver - have changed initials on DB thanks!

    i also added the original NTK from Dec 2015
    Last edited by bennjiboy; 03-11-2018 at 9:56 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 3rd Nov 18, 9:45 AM
    • 38,042 Posts
    • 22,139 Thanks
    Quentin
    Anyone following your link will see your full name

    Your decision whether or not it would be detrimental.
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 3rd Nov 18, 10:35 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    Cheers, so the question is now is my response to bw legal ok or can I add / remove anything based on the letters sent?
    Thank you everyone 👍
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 7th Nov 18, 8:36 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    one for the "file" pile?

    If you want to be a bit more pro-active, then send a SAR to UKPPO asking for all your details. If there is no letter or communication to BW about these "instructions" then ask why not. It won't be legally privileged so they should cough it up.

    No letter then a complaint to the SRA
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Hi IamEmanresu and other helpful people :-)

    received the following back from UKPPO, with a file showing nothing apart from 3 screenshots from their system, and no information about anything they have sent about the keeper to any other company - and this reply below...what next please do i send the same SAR to DRP?

    Also, about the claim not being in keepers name, thats because I did it and im not the keeper not driver! Do i ask for an SAR on me too?


    UK Parking Patrol

    Department 309,

    Great Northern House,

    275 Deansgate

    Manchester

    M3 4EL


    Dear Madam,


    Parking Charge Number:


    Vehicle Registration Number:



    Thank you for your request. Please see the attached documentation, which I hope is sufficient as it is an accumulation of the data we hold on you.



    I believe, as the matter was passed onto Debt Recovery Plus Ltd, that they may hold further personal information pertaining to you, as may other companies.


    Please be advised that you have not been provided with copies of any appeal correspondence as, they were not submitted under your name.


    Should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.



    Yours sincerely


    S Doyle

    UK Parking Patrol Office Ltd
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Nov 18, 2:13 AM
    • 65,892 Posts
    • 78,372 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    do i send the same SAR to DRP?
    No, do not engage with them.

    Also, about the claim not being in keepers name, thats because I did it and im not the keeper not driver! Do i ask for an SAR on me too?
    What, you are/were neither keeper nor hirer nor driver of the car? How come YOU appealed?

    You need to spell that out to UKPPO and ask how they think they can possibly hold a third party stranger to the alleged contract, liable just because you wrote the appeal (because...why?).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 8th Nov 18, 5:37 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    My wife is the keeper, I just did the appeal in my name as I had the time to do this.

    All the correspondence has been in my wife’s name though, from all companies ukppo drp Gladstone’s bw..
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 8th Nov 18, 5:42 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    To confirm as well, it is my wife as the keeper they are chasing the money from, not me, I am just doing the work to get this invoice cancelled!
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 9th Nov 18, 6:41 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    hi - any thoughts on our next step regarding this SAR response?

    And also, any advice on the draft letter to this Letter of Claim?

    I am away with work from sunday so want to get this moving as much as possible.

    thanks again!
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 14th Nov 18, 3:21 AM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    Can anyone give any advice on the next steps for this SAR and the appeal letter I wrote earlier in the thread please?

    Thanks :-)
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 19th Nov 18, 12:30 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    Hi - this is my draft letter to send to BW Legal regarding the Letter of Claim - any changes before we send this - we have until 2nd December to reply

    Dear Sir

    In response to your Letter of Claim to XXXX date XXXX your reference XXXX please find this response to deny all liability to the debt.

    As you have stated, you have been instructed by UK Parking Patrol Office Limited to commence legal action, we look forward to the court hearing and presenting all the evidence to show that the invoice is invalid and the claim be dismissed.

    Evidence includes:
    • In response to the original appeal in January 2016, the adjudicator stated the following facts:
    o If the Appellant parks within sight of the sign the terms of the sign apply to where they are parked.
    • They then go on to state:
    o I agree there is no sign in sight of the driver at the time of stopping.
    • Furthermore, they state
    o I cannot see on the Appellant’s evidence where they are parked.
    • Regarding the place of the alleged parking, this was on the entrance to the DoubleTree Hotel. We requested evidence that this land is covered by the alleged contract between UKPP and the landowner. The response on the appeal is below, we once again hereby request this information
    o There is no evidence who owns the land.
    • The adjudicator also states that the signs DO NOT have to identify a boundary – surely this is illegal practice?

    Reference to your letters dated 12th October 2018 and 29th October 2018, there is no evidence of:
    • Photographic evidence or video evidence of the alleged Contravention
    • Evidence of the Debt Recovery costs of £60 between BW Legal and UKPPO – this is a fictious amount and has no legal standing. Please provide proof of these amounts
    • An SAR was submitted to UKPPO and no evidence has been provided of them passing any information to BW Legal regarding my personal information, including name, address and Registration Details of the vehicle. This is in direct contravention of GDPR legislation and costs will be sought in Court.
    • Please provide evidence of the Interest Charge of £21.06
    • Please provide evidence of how you got the full contact details of the keeper including address and Registration Details.
    Please provide a full unredacted copy of the contract between UKPPO and the Landowner, clearly showing they have the absolute authorised right to issue a Parking Charge Notice. This was requested during the original appeal but keeper has been denied a copy.

    Based on these statements alone, this case would be dismissed immediately in court and we will put forward a counter claim for loss of earning and expenses of attending a court hearing.


    There are numerous other issues which make this debt unenforceable which will be put forward during any court hearing.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Nov 18, 2:11 PM
    • 4,392 Posts
    • 5,340 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You cannot quesiton interest. This is statutory based on the claimaed amount at a rate of 8%.
    You cannot put a counter claimn in for your costs of attending a court hearing. That is simply costs.

    I suugest you have a long way to go. This is quite a poor LBA response.
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 19th Nov 18, 3:33 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    ok, thanks

    was hoping it wasnt that bad

    what would your suggestions be please?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Nov 18, 3:35 PM
    • 65,892 Posts
    • 78,372 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, I am about to change the LBC reply advice.

    Bin ALL templates.

    Send a SAR to the parking firm. Look up their PRIVACY PAGE for the email address.

    And a holding letter to any solicitor, telling them a SAR is in progress with their client and to put the case on hold.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 19th Nov 18, 3:40 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    thanks coupon-mad

    we did an SAR - got this response.

    Appeal was submitted under my name (i am not the driver or keeper) my wife is the keeper but due to work commitments at that time I did the appeal. Should we send another SAR to UKPPO asking specifically which companies they have passed the keepers details onto?

    What should i do with the letter then, this is a letter of claim, and then they will issue a claim against keeper after 2nd december.

    UK Parking Patrol

    Department 309,

    Great Northern House,

    275 Deansgate

    Manchester

    M3 4EL


    Dear Madam,


    Parking Charge Number:

    Vehicle Registration Number:

    Thank you for your request. Please see the attached documentation, which I hope is sufficient as it is an accumulation of the data we hold on you.

    I believe, as the matter was passed onto Debt Recovery Plus Ltd, that they may hold further personal information pertaining to you, as may other companies.

    Please be advised that you have not been provided with copies of any appeal correspondence as, they were not submitted under your name.

    Should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

    Yours sincerely

    S Doyle

    UK Parking Patrol Office Ltd
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Nov 18, 4:11 PM
    • 65,892 Posts
    • 78,372 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Please be advised that you have not been provided with copies of any appeal correspondence as, they were not submitted under your name.
    Send a SAR in the other name then, to see their hand (you want to see everything).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • bennjiboy
    • By bennjiboy 19th Nov 18, 4:29 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    bennjiboy
    Send a SAR in the other name then, to see their hand (you want to see everything).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Done now thanks :-)

    my main concern then is what to put in this letter, or do i just write and deny the debt, and wait for the Letter from the court?
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