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  • FIRST POST
    • MetroBot
    • By MetroBot 29th Oct 18, 8:02 PM
    • 49Posts
    • 48Thanks
    MetroBot
    Welcome Break Fleet PCN Parking Charge
    • #1
    • 29th Oct 18, 8:02 PM
    Welcome Break Fleet PCN Parking Charge 29th Oct 18 at 8:02 PM
    Hi

    Sorry but need some suggestions again.

    PE PCN

    Car was present at Welcome Break Fleet motorway services car park somewhere between 4 and 7:30. Reasons are obvious. 3 hours 13 minutes total stay.

    No signs to be seen, all dark as imaginable at the time I imagine. Although I would appreciate some pics from there if anyone stops by.

    PCN issued after 9 days.
    PCN has POFA although no Beavis mention.

    Questions:
    Does or will GDPR ever apply? Don't understand why my details are still being released to private companies for no serious offence.
    Should I complain to Welcome Break for this?
    Thought things might have changed for Motorway Services Parking since Nicholas Bowen.
    Anything else I should be aware of for this case apart from MSA TSRGD and other older POPLA cases from mse?

    I have read a few cases here on mse about these genuinely dangerous fines, really dangerous for Motorway users if people avoid services when they're tired.

    I'm only looking for updates on really recent cases like this to see what applies best. Don't know much about PCNs on Motorway Services but it seems really absurd and quite illegal in my opinion since I have never seen Paid Parking in Services anywhere else in Europe. Honestly this feels like a Rowan Atkinson act.

    General question which shouldn't even be asked: Are they going to implement side motorway parking on the hard shoulder? Or when tired just stop wherever feels comfortable on the motorway.
    Last edited by MetroBot; 29-10-2018 at 8:09 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Oct 18, 8:09 PM
    • 64,149 Posts
    • 76,748 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 29th Oct 18, 8:09 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Oct 18, 8:09 PM
    Should I complain to Welcome Break for this?
    Yes. All WB sites have a website with a contact email, so do that right now.

    Why not read the thread next to yours, by Bayman, whose post beat yours by half an hour? Saves us typing the same advice twice!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • MetroBot
    • By MetroBot 29th Oct 18, 9:45 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    MetroBot
    • #3
    • 29th Oct 18, 9:45 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Oct 18, 9:45 PM
    Does anyone have any e-mail address or phone number of any manager from Welcome Break Fleet as on their website I have only found their general enquiries e-mail Fleet.enquiry@welcomebreak.co.uk. And I imagine it won't be of much help.

    I don't know where to look for such details. Someone more tech savvy please help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Oct 18, 12:24 AM
    • 64,149 Posts
    • 76,748 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 30th Oct 18, 12:24 AM
    • #4
    • 30th Oct 18, 12:24 AM
    Sorry? All WB sites have their own page and you seem to have found the email contact.

    Stop imagining it won't be of help and give the complaint a go.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-10-2018 at 1:45 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Oct 18, 1:14 AM
    • 10,768 Posts
    • 11,212 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #5
    • 30th Oct 18, 1:14 AM
    • #5
    • 30th Oct 18, 1:14 AM
    And MetroBot has already found the WB M3 Fleet Services page and quoted the email address from it.
    .
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 30th Oct 18, 6:20 AM
    • 10,666 Posts
    • 10,045 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #6
    • 30th Oct 18, 6:20 AM
    • #6
    • 30th Oct 18, 6:20 AM
    I am amazed that motorists don't know that ALL service stations have a time limit for free parking.

    But I am further amazed that motorists are not encouraged, as on the continent, to take sleep breaks for as long as needed.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 30th Oct 18, 8:23 AM
    • 9,370 Posts
    • 12,342 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #7
    • 30th Oct 18, 8:23 AM
    • #7
    • 30th Oct 18, 8:23 AM
    I am amazed that motorists don't know that ALL service stations have a time limit for free parking.

    But I am further amazed that motorists are not encouraged, as on the continent, to take sleep breaks for as long as needed.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    Totally agree

    All these services are rip off britain and as they are mainly in a remote area, who would abuse the parking, it's not like it's a family day out .... it's just a "rob your wallet" place

    Typical government with their motorway signs saying "take a break" and "tiredness kills" ..... and you are slapped with a 100 charge for daring to have a snooze

    Fleet services on one side of the M3 was burnt down the other year and took months to re-open. Parking Eye are no doubt catching up on lost business

    FFS, I won't even get petrol in these places, complete rip off
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 30th Oct 18, 8:39 AM
    • 10,650 Posts
    • 10,500 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 30th Oct 18, 8:39 AM
    • #8
    • 30th Oct 18, 8:39 AM
    Don't understand why my details are still being released to private companies for no serious offence.

    Surely you must agree that landowners have a right to know who is trespassing on their land.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed in the house as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week, hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an
    M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas. s
    Last edited by The Deep; 30-10-2018 at 8:43 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th Oct 18, 10:32 AM
    • 37,797 Posts
    • 84,859 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 30th Oct 18, 10:32 AM
    • #9
    • 30th Oct 18, 10:32 AM
    MSAs are refuges, a place of safety. The UK Government places signs on our main roads and motorways to highlight that Tiredness Kills, and instructs motorists to take a break when tired.

    These are forceful arguments to be used whenever anyone gets a PCN for complying with the Government's instructions on road safety.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 30th Oct 18, 10:56 AM
    • 441 Posts
    • 577 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    Totally agree

    All these services are rip off britain and as they are mainly in a remote area, who would abuse the parking, it's not like it's a family day out .... it's just a "rob your wallet" place

    Typical government with their motorway signs saying "take a break" and "tiredness kills" ..... and you are slapped with a 100 charge for daring to have a snooze

    Fleet services on one side of the M3 was burnt down the other year and took months to re-open. Parking Eye are no doubt catching up on lost business

    FFS, I won't even get petrol in these places, complete rip off
    Originally posted by beamerguy

    Your not kidding Beamer, the petrol prices alone are enough to put me off going in too not to mention the very genuine risk of being scammed for 100, definitely rip-off Britain.


    I usually go off at a junction and find a local service station, usually only a few miles out of the way and much cheaper, also very satisfying to my principles not supporting scammers.
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Oct 18, 12:51 AM
    • 64,149 Posts
    • 76,748 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Me too!

    Recently I drove into a Services near Bath and then drove out again, continuing on fumes till I found a normal-priced petrol garage!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Tilt
    • By Tilt 31st Oct 18, 1:01 AM
    • 3,527 Posts
    • 1,693 Thanks
    Tilt
    MSAs are refuges, a place of safety. The UK Government places signs on our main roads and motorways to highlight that Tiredness Kills, and instructs motorists to take a break when tired.

    These are forceful arguments to be used whenever anyone gets a PCN for complying with the Government's instructions on road safety.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    And the land lords of MSAs are in fact, the department of transport (or Highways Agency). I'm not so sure that issuing Parking Charge Notices for overstaying at a rest station (which is technically what they are) is recoverable anyway.
    PLEASE NOTE
    My advice should be used as guidance only. You should always obtain face to face professional advice before taking any action.
    • MetroBot
    • By MetroBot 9th Nov 18, 11:06 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    MetroBot
    Hi

    I have had to immediately leave the country due to family health related issues the very next day after I posted this on here and I am sorry I have not been able to reply to any of you.

    I would like to thank you all for your help and suggestions.

    As you can imagine, I could not concentrate on a PCN when I had rather life threatening issues to deal with and I am still struggling to keep myself together and focus on this. Of course, irrelevant details for the matter.

    I had thoughts of actually paying it just to get rid of more stress that I shouldn't have in the first place. If only there was common sense.

    But I have managed to put together a letter for WB in the past couple of days and wanted to get a quick opinion on the wording before I send it off. Please, if anyone is online and sees this, have a quick scan through and let me know what adjustments I should make.

    Thank you very much

    Dear Welcome Break Managers

    If this message doesn’t reach one of the Managers, please forward it to the appropriate person.

    I am writing to you as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle with the registration plate ‘xxxxx’ and as a business customer in regards to a Parking Charge Notice issued by the private company Parking Eye with which you have parking management contracts.

    There will be no question as to who was driving the car on that date and no assumptions can be made.
    The car in question was present at your Car Park on the 17/xx/xxxx between 4am and 7am. A total stay of 3 hours and xx minutes.

    The driver was a legitimate customer but paid cash and had no idea they might have to keep their receipts from a Starbucks and WH Smith purchase and a meal, to fend off a later spurious charge from a third party like Parking Eye.

    The driver did not see any signs so as the registered keeper and having previously been in your car park I conclude that your signs are inadequate and I am aware that Parking Eye signage is notoriously inconspicuous and often far too high to be seen.

    The amount of the charge is also clearly a disproportionate penalty as you have made no loss and nor have the retailers at that time.

    From my personal experience as a frequent business customer of yours for at least a year since I started commuting to London. I have spent enormous amounts of money on petrol, food and coffee from you. And even though I have stopped so many times on your premises I have not seen one sign saying that this car park is NOT free or that it may have a 2 hour limited stay.

    Furthermore, the UK Government and legal authorities invest in campaigns like “THINK!” such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVVvSaRSrZE and place signs like "TAKE A BREAK" and "TIREDNESS KILLS" sporadically across the country urging motorists to NOT DRIVE IF TIRED and find a refuge, a safe place to REST for a few hours before recommencing their journey in order to NOT ENDANGER other users of the motorway as at least a quarter of all road accidents (according to researches) happen because of tired drivers who fall asleep. For that reason, there are MOTORWAY SERVICES which must comply with MSA TSRGD and which offer parking for motorists to be able to get off the motorway and rest.

    As you can imagine, at 4 in the morning a person would only enter a resting zone because the person is tired and feels that it would be unsafe to continue their journey. A tired person would be unable to search through a car park for the very few signs to check if there is any charge and even more unable to read the ridiculously small print and as a result, enter a contract.

    Signs should be placed in clear eyesight at the entrance of the services in large lettering, well illuminated and easy to spot and read to clearly warn motorway users and especially make aware the tired users in the middle of the night about potential charges upon entering. Furthermore, and this is a serious offence against GDPR laws, anyone intending to enter the services MUST be warned in advance about the use of ANPR cameras in order to decide whether they want to accept this or not and be able to refuse entrance if such system is in use.

    Please save your time and do not reply to this saying that you are unable to cancel the PCN and that I should speak to ParkingEye. I am fully aware of the contracts you have with them as I have worked in the past with other companies who have similar contracts and there are clauses in the contracts that allow each party to amend the charges.

    I would like to kindly ask you to cancel this PCN immediately, no questions asked. I also want to make it clear that this PCN will not be paid, the driver will not be named and if it is not cancelled, it goes to court.

    Regards.
    • MetroBot
    • By MetroBot 10th Nov 18, 2:28 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    MetroBot
    Anyone around?
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 11th Nov 18, 8:43 AM
    • 93 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    MistyZ
    I think your letter might do the job but I'd change the tone & organise it a little better.

    You don't need to be quite as officious when making a complaint to managers as you do when composing appeals. I'd leave out the para which starts: 'There will be no question as to who was driving the car ....' to my mind, as long as you do not identify the driver it isn't necessary and might get their backs up.

    I'd go for 'we' throughout except where you need to mention the RK or driver e.g. 'we made purchases in cash from Starbucks .... etc.' And in that paragraph, as in others, I'd be a little more factual and less angry about what happened before delivering your good, 'killer' points about receipts, poor signage, government campaigns. Describe the circumstances in detail in a neutral tone. That way, when you do express how outrageous this is, it comes across as entirely understandable. Keep it hard-hitting but in a more digestible form e.g. maybe fewer capitals in the para. about campaigns. Those are great points, they don't need to be over-egged.

    Organisation-wise, it would read better if you dealt with one subject per paragraph. Okay, some subjects e.g. fatigue and signage, fatigue and government campaigns, do need to be related but try to allocate a paragraph to each main subject.

    I don't think these things need to be perfect. But don't scream at the manager from the off, you are being reasonable, your anger is justified and the parking charge is not. Controlled anger and assertiveness are the way to go I think. Good luck!
    Last edited by MistyZ; 11-11-2018 at 8:51 AM.
    • misterbarlow
    • By misterbarlow 11th Nov 18, 9:11 AM
    • 414 Posts
    • 263 Thanks
    misterbarlow
    Our recent pcn was in a Welcome Break and I emailed them, they didn't give a toss and actually supported the actions of Parkingeye...

    May I explain that Welcome Break have always charged for parking after a free stay period. Parking Eye were instructed by us in 2010 to monitor and enforce the regulations detailed on the signage in our car parks using ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) with payment terminals located inside the building and prior to this we used the services of another car park operator who adopted a manned attendant approach.

    You will notice that the same parking restrictions apply at all other motorway service areas in the UK such at Moto, Extra and Road Chef i.e. 2-3 hours free parking, after which time, parking tariffs apply. The 2 hour free parking policy at Welcome Break is made clear by signage at the entrance and throughout each of the main parking areas.

    Welcome Break; along with other Motorway Service Area operators have a requirement to manage our car parks as it is important that we are able to provide enough parking spaces for regular traveller and long distance travellers. We are unable to provide this if our car parks are full of long term parking vehicles. By charging for parking after the 2 hour free stay, we ensure that our car parks have enough spaces for visitors.

    The government advice is that motorists should take a break of at least 20 minutes every two hours and all motorway service providers need to provide free short term parking up to 2 hours. Welcome Break, along with other motorway service providers, have a 2 hour free parking policy.

    As a result, Welcome Break has instructed Parking Eye to manage, monitor and enforce Welcome Break parking regulations on our behalf.

    There is a process in place for customers who receive parking charge notices that they believe to be unfair or unreasonable. Parking Eye runs an extensive and fully audited appeals service with each appeal being looked at on a case by case basis. If Parking Eye rejects your appeal, you have a further opportunity to appeal to POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals Service). This is an independent body for assessing parking charges on private land. The decisions made by this body are binding on Parking Eye but not the motorist.

    There is signage detailing the parking charges on the entrances to the car parks and also on the main walkways to the main buildings to highlight that charges apply after the free 2 hour period. The terms and conditions of our car parks are outlined within the signage located within the site. We strive to ensure that these are as clear and apparent as possible and can confirm that we believe there is plenty of notice given to users of our site so that they are made aware of these terms and conditions. In relation to signage, All Parking Eye signage fully adheres to industry guidelines as set out by the British Parking Association.

    The appeals process is managed directly through Parking Eye and you can make your appeal via the Parking Eye website:

    Welcome Break can confirm that Parking Eye have full authority to act as an agent on behalf of ourselves as the land holder to conduct car park management services on our sites, this includes making contracts in their own name through the signage located on our sites.

    If you feel your Parking charge has been received unfairly than please follow the appropriate steps of appeal with Parking Eye clearly stating your reasons why, unfortunately at this point Welcome Break would not be able to offer any further comment on this matter and would ask that you direct any points that you wish to raise with Parking Eye directly.

    Kind Regards
    I bet you will even get the exact same reply, verbatim!!
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