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  • FIRST POST
    • avem1
    • By avem1 27th Oct 18, 9:57 PM
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    avem1
    Claim Form Originating from bwlegal and Britannia parking
    • #1
    • 27th Oct 18, 9:57 PM
    Claim Form Originating from bwlegal and Britannia parking 27th Oct 18 at 9:57 PM
    Hi Guys

    Been spending the last 2 days reading as much of this forum as possible and see that as a newbie I should post a new thread as I've had a claims form issued.

    Received a PCN from Britannia in 2016 for failing to have a pay and display ticket in a retail centre car park.
    I did not purchase a ticket as I was unaware there was a charge for the car park due to the poor and inadequately positioned signage in the car park.
    When we parked I actually got ouf of the car and looked at a sign in front of us which was nothing to do with fees. I then looked around and could see no signs relating to having to pay.
    Upon returning to the car and seeing the PCN we looked even harder for signs and could see none from the position we had parked in. There were other signs in the car park but they were distant and facing the opposite direction from where we parked (which was adjacent to the shops) so that all you could see if you looked hard enough was the blank grey background of one sign.
    There was 1 sign that we would have passed but that was outside the car park and on the main rd in to the carpark area, located slap bang between 2 roundabouts so that the driver would have been concentrating on the roads and traffic instead of seeing a sign (which was attached to the roundabout road sign, so inconspicuous in its own right let alone its poor positioning between 2 busy adjacent roundabouts.

    I will send off my acknowledgment to the court within the permitted time. The claim form issue date is 19 oct 2018. I've seen the drop box detail of how to do this...putting nothing in the defence box!

    I havent come across a defence which seems purely about not seeing any signs so not buying a ticket. I dont expect to be spoon fed but I'd be grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of one or give me some pointers on my defence.

    The particulars of claim are:
    "The claimants Claim is for the sum of X being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a PCN issued on 'Date' at place Y
    The PCN relates to (defendants car).
    The terms of the PCN allowed the defendant 28 days from the Issue date to pay the PCN, but the defendant failed to do so. Despite demand having been made the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.
    The Claim also includes Statutory interest pursuant to section 69 of the county courts act 1984 at a rate of 8 per cent per annum a daily rate of 0.02 from 2016 to last week being an amount of X
    The claimant also claims X contractual costs pursuant to PCN Terms and Conditions."


    The total amount is between 200-300.

    At the time of PCN, I entered an appeal with Britannia and then with POPLA citing the inadequate signage which were both rejected (wish I'd come on this forum then!).
    I then ignored all the debt collectors letters. I read bwlegals first letter when it came in August 18 which I just took to read as another debt collectors letter and subsequently ignored their next 2 letters (including the Letter of Claim).
    It was only when the claim form came through the post that I went back and read everything.

    Also, during my appeal process Britannia had this in one of their letters "We have identified appellant to be the driver and liable for the parking charge notice. The driver has supplied us with the home address in the appeal letter and we therefore find them liable for the parking charge notice"

    I'm determined to take these locusts all the way, so any help is really appreciated!

    Many thanks
    Last edited by avem1; 27-10-2018 at 11:30 PM. Reason: grammer
Page 2
    • avem1
    • By avem1 6th Nov 18, 10:48 PM
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    avem1
    Any of the pros around to comment on my draft defence?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Nov 18, 11:04 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I also requested an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.
    They have sent a copy that has the landowners names/signatures redacted. This is dated in early 2018 whereas the previous copy which was presented during my popla appeal is a different one (still redacted) dated early 2016. Does this make any difference that they've sent 2 different contracts (ie possibly signed by different people/companies) and are they still allowed to redact the details?
    They can do what they like but you can raise this in your Witness Statement and ask them to explain this at the hearing.



    I say you are missing a few tricks and need to read a few other BW Legal defences, as they have not just added 60, and you don't appear to have attacked ALL the added costs like we recommend, and I didn't see anything about no landowner authority.

    Search for BW Legal defence Ladak
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 7th Nov 18, 4:43 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    Could we see the contracts?
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • avem1
    • By avem1 7th Nov 18, 9:02 PM
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    avem1
    Thanks Coupon and Iam

    Heres the 2016 one https://docdro.id/N0DJTgV

    and the 2018 one https://docdro.id/o2yeWM0

    Do these docs constitute landowner authority coupon?
    Last edited by avem1; 07-11-2018 at 9:54 PM. Reason: editing
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Nov 18, 2:26 AM
    • 63,870 Posts
    • 76,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Too late to look now, but bumped to the top, because IamEmanresu tends to do the early shift here!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Nov 18, 6:02 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    The contracts do not give express authority to issue claims in their own name so you'd add another paragraph about the Claimant having no standing to take action in their own name.

    Britannia are not overly aggressive so a decent defence like the one CM has suggested should see this off. So a bit more work should do it.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • avem1
    • By avem1 8th Nov 18, 7:54 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    Thanks guys...I'll get back to it
    • Castle
    • By Castle 8th Nov 18, 9:09 PM
    • 2,002 Posts
    • 2,705 Thanks
    Castle
    Thanks Coupon and Iam

    Heres the 2016 one https://docdro.id/N0DJTgV

    and the 2018 one https://docdro.id/o2yeWM0

    Do these docs constitute landowner authority coupon?
    Originally posted by avem1
    Can you confirm the company registration number listed at the bottom of the 2016 "contract"; it looks like 2389707.
    • avem1
    • By avem1 8th Nov 18, 11:23 PM
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    avem1
    Hi Castle, yes the Registered number is as you said 2389707 on the 2016 contract. On the 2018 contract its 08182990.



    Herewith latest defence draft:

    In The County Court
    Claim No: XXXXXXX
    Between
    XXXXX (Claimant)

    -and-

    XXXXXXX (Defendant)

    ____________
    DEFENCE
    ____________

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts of the matter are that there were no visible signs stating the claimants terms from entering the car park area to where the defendant parked.
    On the foot route the defendant made from their parked car to XXXX (shop) and back, there were no signs.
    This is in contravention of The British Parking Association (BPA) Approved Operator Scheme (AoS) section 18.3 under which the claimant is an active member.

    3. The claimant has one sign positioned to the left of a pavement on a private access road prior to entering the main car park area. It is denied that the claimant's sign sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear or visible manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. It would also be unsafe to attempt to read this sign whilst negotiating two concurrent roundabouts in a busy traffic and pedestrian area. This sign is positioned so that any passing pedestrians would completely obscure it from view. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's sign is capable of creating a legally binding contract.
    This sign is in contravention of the BPA AoS Appendix B.

    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    5.1 The signage states that "Britannia Parking manage and control this car park". Britannia Parking are therefore acting as an agent of the landowner. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name. Any claim should be in the name of the landowner.
    Neither the claim form, nor the signage state who the owner of the land is.

    6. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has artificially inflated the claim value by claiming to have paid vague costs (contractual costs) totaling XX in addition to an alleged 70 debt.
    Previous letters to the defendant from BW Legal have stated that the XX claimed is for “our client's initial legal costs".
    Legal services cannot be claimed in the small claims court as per CPR 27.14

    6.1 The claim includes a sum of XX, described as "Legal representative's costs". This work is done as part of the Claimant's Legal Representatives everyday routine and no "expert services" are involved. The Claimant is put to strict proof, by way of timesheets or otherwise, to show how this cost has been incurred.

    6.2 The Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that all claimed costs were invoiced and paid. The defendant also asks why they waited nearly 2 years to bring this to court and why they believe their own negligence and delay should earn a Claimant 8% interest, to the imbalance of a consumer's rights and interests

    7. The defendant denies the claim in its entirety voiding any liability to the claimant for all amounts claimed due to the aforementioned reasons. The Court is invited to dismiss the Claim and to allow such defendant's costs as are permissible under Civil Procedure Rule 27.14


    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Nov 18, 9:40 AM
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    Castle
    Hi Castle, yes the Registered number is as you said 2389707 on the 2016 contract. On the 2018 contract its 08182990.
    Originally posted by avem1
    Registration number 2389707 belongs to a company called "Car Park 2015 Limited"; however the letter is dated 13th January 2016 and on that date (a) the company was in Administration and (b) Mr Parker wasn't a Director.
    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02389707/filing-history

    I'd suspect that the original agreement dated 2nd February 2009, (as referred to in both the 2016 and 2018 letters), is actually in the name of Car Park 2015 Ltd, which isn't the company who is taking you to court.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Nov 18, 10:00 AM
    • 3,921 Posts
    • 4,719 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    ....Meaning you need and MUSt add in this discrepancy to the defence
    It goes directly to NO STANDING to issue a claim.
    • avem1
    • By avem1 9th Nov 18, 1:18 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    avem1
    Brilliant guys, thankyou!!
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Nov 18, 1:23 PM
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    • 2,705 Thanks
    Castle
    So which company issued the claim, since "Britannia Parking" is just a trading name and not a legal entity?
    • avem1
    • By avem1 9th Nov 18, 7:50 PM
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    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    The Claimant is 'Britannia Parking Limited"
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Nov 18, 9:01 PM
    • 2,002 Posts
    • 2,705 Thanks
    Castle
    The Claimant is 'Britannia Parking Limited"
    Originally posted by avem1
    Is there a Company registration number on any correspondence because, according to Companies House the company is dormant, and has never traded.
    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03175808
    • avem1
    • By avem1 9th Nov 18, 9:39 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    On the 2018 contract the number on that contract is 08182990 and comes up as Britannia Parking Group Limited.
    But yes, as you say the Claimant 'Britannia Parking Limited' (03175808) is showing as dormant.

    The PCN received in final quarter of 2016 is headed 'Britannia Parking' and under this it says 'Britannia parking group Registered in England No. 08182990

    All the subsequent correspondence I've had from them, at the bottom says: "Britannia Parking is a registered trading name of Britannia Parking Group Limited and any of its wholly owned subsidiaries. Registered office: Britannia House, 16 Poole Hill, Bournemouth, BH2 5PS
    Registered in England No. 08182990

    Thoroughly confused now!
    • avem1
    • By avem1 12th Nov 18, 8:16 PM
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    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    Does this mean the contract with the Landowner from 2016 is not worth the paper its written on?
    If thats the case, any direction as to how to phrase this in my defence would be appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Nov 18, 8:24 PM
    • 63,870 Posts
    • 76,516 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just state what you see, and show us your wording and we'll add to it and edit someone stronger in, if we think it is needed.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • avem1
    • By avem1 12th Nov 18, 8:53 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    thanks coupon, will do. But just to be sure I know what I'm arguing before I put anything down....

    The fact that the footer on the 2016 contract gives the business number for a company that was in administration when the contract was signed, does that make it void or is this just seen as an administrative error (ie they used an old piece of paper, when they may have relisted as another company with a similar name)? Many thanks
    • avem1
    • By avem1 13th Nov 18, 9:33 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    avem1
    Herewith my latest draft defence. Its as posted before with the main differences/changes coming in section 5.2. I'd be grateful for any comments from the pros:


    In The County Court
    Claim No: XXXXXXX
    Between
    XXXXX (Claimant)

    -and-

    XXXXXXX (Defendant)

    ____________
    DEFENCE
    ____________

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts of the matter are that there were no visible signs stating the claimants terms from entering the car park area to where the defendant parked.
    On the foot route the defendant made from their parked car to XXXX (shop) and back, there were no signs.
    This is in contravention of The British Parking Association (BPA) Approved Operator Scheme (AoS) section 18.3 under which the claimant is an active member.

    3. The claimant has one sign positioned to the left of a pavement on a private access road prior to entering the main car park area. It is denied that the claimant's sign sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear or visible manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. It would also be unsafe to attempt to read this sign whilst negotiating two concurrent roundabouts in a busy traffic and pedestrian area. This sign is positioned so that any passing pedestrians would completely obscure it from view. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's sign is capable of creating a legally binding contract.
    This sign is in contravention of the BPA AoS Appendix B.

    4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    5. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    5.1 The signage states that "Britannia Parking manage and control this car park". Britannia Parking are therefore acting as an agent of the landowner. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name. Any claim should be in the name of the landowner.
    Neither the claim form, nor the signage state who the owner of the land is.

    5.2 The Claimant has provided the defendant with a redacted ‘contract’ they have with the landowner dated 15 Jan 2016. This contract is Signed by Bryan Parker, “Managing director, Britannia Parking Group Limited” and is referenced as registered company 2389707. There are numerous irregularities with this contract:
    1. Registered company 2389707 is actually registered at companies house as “Car Park 2015
    Limited” whom went in to administration on 8 April 2015.
    2. On the 1 April 2015 Mr Brian Parker had a Termination of appointment as Director with Car
    Park 2015 Ltd.
    3. The contract does not give express authority for the claimant to issue claims in their own name.
    4. The contract makes reference to an ongoing agreement dated 2 February 2009. I suspect this
    agreement is also in the name of Car Park 2015 Ltd, who is not the claimant in this case.

    For the reasons above I believe the claimant has no standing to make a claim.

    6. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has artificially inflated the claim value by claiming to have paid vague costs (contractual costs) totaling XX in addition to an alleged 70 debt.
    Previous letters to the defendant from BW Legal have stated that the XX claimed is for “our client's initial legal costs".
    Legal services cannot be claimed in the small claims court as per CPR 27.14

    6.1 The claim includes a sum of XX, described as "Legal representative's costs". This work is done as part of the Claimant's Legal Representatives everyday routine and no "expert services" are involved. The Claimant is put to strict proof, by way of timesheets or otherwise, to show how this cost has been incurred.

    6.2 The Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that all claimed costs were invoiced and paid. The defendant also asks why they waited nearly 2 years to bring this to court and why they believe their own negligence and delay should earn a Claimant 8% interest, to the imbalance of a consumer's rights and interests

    7. The defendant denies the claim in its entirety voiding any liability to the claimant for all amounts claimed due to the aforementioned reasons. The Court is invited to dismiss the Claim and to allow such defendant's costs as are permissible under Civil Procedure Rule 27.14


    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
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