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  • FIRST POST
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 13th Oct 18, 5:29 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Sushah
    ANPR final reminder notice
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 18, 5:29 PM
    ANPR final reminder notice 13th Oct 18 at 5:29 PM
    Hello, I received a final reminder PCN from NCP for a contravention that happened on 23 Aug 2018. This was the only notice received (on 8 October 2018), and NCP are asking for full payment of £100. I am keeper of the car, but not primary user. I have checked online and NCP have photographic evidence of car entering and leaving the London Underground station car park. I have checked with the driver and they had been to the station to drop someone off to their car which was parked there. It was late at night (nearly midnight) and the driver did not pay attention to the notice(s) as the intention was to drop off only. They however got talking and it was more then 15 minutes before they left the car park (nearly 45 minutes).
    I admit there are probably a number of things that the driver could have done to avoid this, however they were not aware and did not read the signs.
    In any case, I have only received a final notice and nothing prior to it hence no opportunity to supply driver details, appeal or pay a discounted charge. I have already said this online on their appeal form, but not heard anything. I am worried if this gets passed to their debt collector.
    What are my options?
    Does the driver have any? Such as they did not actually park and were only dropping someone off.
    Any help or direction will be appreciated.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 18, 5:35 PM
    • 19,647 Posts
    • 24,941 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 18, 5:35 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 18, 5:35 PM
    if the driver was on site then the driver should have paid, they did "park" even if it wasnt in a bay and even if the engine was running, they were stopped on a car park or bay or private land, no question


    BUT


    as keeper, unless the PPC can prove liability under POFA2012 they have missed the 14 day deadline for the NTK


    I would have appealed using the blue text template in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, then took it from there


    if this is really an UNDERGROUND car park and so railway land, then POFA2012 does not apply and the pcn "times out" after 6 months as a penalty notice and if that is the case it can only be dealt with in MAGS court if bylaws apply (yes , it is complicated)


    so I am assuming that bylaws apply and after 6 months the TOC can do nothing at all and there is no keeper liability


    so if it isnt cancelled, plus if they fail to issue a POPLA code , string it out as keeper past 6 months


    read other railway station threads, especially INDIGO ones, to see why


    as I said , its complicated. but you did ask !!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Oct 18, 5:37 PM
    • 37,572 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 18, 5:37 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 18, 5:37 PM
    Start by reading the Sticky thread for NEWBIES.

    If you appealed (when was this?) you should get a reply within 35 days and a PoPLA code if rejected. If byelaws apply then you have nothing to worry about as this will time out after six months as long as neither the driver or owner are revealed. The Keeper is neither of these.

    Complain to the BPA and DVLA that The Keeper never go the original NTK. For some strange reason, more mail is lost from private prking companies than any other mail in the country. Hmmmm, funny that.

    If you haven't had a PoPLA code by about day 38, then complain again to the BPA and DVLA.

    Please also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 13th Oct 18, 6:19 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:19 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:19 PM
    Thanks for quick reply @Redx and @Fruitcake. Yes it is complicated and that is why I asked. And I agree, the driver should have read and paid. I can only put it down to new driver, and not realising charges apply 24/7.
    I guess NCP will probably say they sent the original notice before the final reminder. I have been through all my mail and never received one.
    I also think they will try and get driver information from me. But from what you are saying, I am not obliged to give this and after 6 months, the PCN gets cancelled anyway.
    Can they however start proceeding before this to either get driver details or pay the fine either through court or bailiffs?
    Can they still pursue for payment through MAG court after 6 months?
    I appealed on 6 th Oct 2018, stating that I was not the driver and have not received any prior notices giving me opportunity to pay discounted rate or lodge an appeal earlier.
    Sorry but can’t find the templates on here, but will look later in NEWBIES faq as suggested. For now I will wait for their reply.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Oct 18, 6:37 PM
    • 37,572 Posts
    • 84,512 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:37 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:37 PM
    Thanks for quick reply @Redx and @Fruitcake. Yes it is complicated and that is why I asked. And I agree, the driver should have read and paid. I can only put it down to new driver, and not realising charges apply 24/7.
    I guess NCP will probably say they sent the original notice before the final reminder. I have been through all my mail and never received one.
    I also think they will try and get driver information from me. But from what you are saying, I am not obliged to give this and after 6 months, the PCN gets cancelled anyway.
    Can they however start proceeding before this to either get driver details or pay the fine either through court or bailiffs?
    Can they still pursue for payment through MAG court after 6 months?
    I appealed on 6 th Oct 2018, stating that I was not the driver and have not received any prior notices giving me opportunity to pay discounted rate or lodge an appeal earlier.
    Sorry but can’t find the templates on here, but will look later in NEWBIES faq as suggested. For now I will wait for their reply.
    Originally posted by Sushah

    It doesn't get cancelled after six months if byelaws apply. It does mean that it becomes statute barred and cannot be pursued through the courts after that period.

    The PPC cannot instigate proceedings through the magistrate's court. Only the landowner or TOC can do this, but the PPC is hamstrung by the DPA and cannot pass on the keeper details.

    In any case, The Keeper is not liable where byelaws apply, only the owner or the driver. The DVLA only have registered keeper details, not owner or driver details. They are three different people as far as the law is concerned.

    The only way the PPC can get driver or owner details is if you are stupid enough to tell them. You are not required to tell them and nobody, not even a judge can force you.

    Bailliffs and CCJs cannot happen unless someone loses in court, fails to pay, gets a judgement, and fails to pay that. Debt collectors can be ignored. Post 4 of the NEWBIES explains why it is safe to do so.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 18, 6:43 PM
    • 19,647 Posts
    • 24,941 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:43 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 6:43 PM
    NCP "may" have sent an NTK, or maybe not

    the appeal has been done , see what happens

    bylaws may apply, so as I siad, it "times out" after 6 months if its bylaws, plus the TOC would have to issue a penalty notice to you , not NCP

    PEOPLE ALWAYS SEEM TO WORRY ABOUT BAILIFFS ETC, BUT WITHOUT A COURT ORDER , NOBODY WILL BE CALLING ROUND - its an urban myth

    MAGS COURT deals with bylaws

    CIVIL COURT deals with a civil dispute

    it doesnt get "cancelled" , but if its a bylaws penalty it cannot be enforced after 6 months, it can remain on file however , but is statute barred

    DO NOT reveal who was driving unless you have an extremely good reason for doing so, so assume not unless you really hate the driver and want them punished

    no chance of MAGS court after 6 months - dead duck time for the TOC (not NCP)

    Civil courts cannot deal with bylaws cases, not when its a bylaws issue and MAGS court rules apply

    the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread has the single blue text template in post #1 , you cannot miss it

    see if NCP come back with popla, which I doubt
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 13th Oct 18, 10:38 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 10:38 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 10:38 PM
    Thanks very much. Gives me a bit more confidence. I don’t hate the driver for sure, but I do think they should have been a bit more savvy even though it was 11:45pm. There are many mitigating circumstances, but as I have read in other posts they don’t count for anything, so my only chance is not to reveal the driver and string it out for 6 months NCP will need to refer it to the landowner (I’m assuming LU owns it).
    My main concern was if it gets passed to their debt collectors as I think these companies are very good at bullying people into paying. Is there anything I can or need to do to stop it getting that far or take any counter action if it does get to that stage. Sorry just weighing my options if the worst were to happen.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Oct 18, 10:48 PM
    • 9,889 Posts
    • 10,205 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 10:48 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 10:48 PM
    My main concern was if it gets passed to their debt collectors as I think these companies are very good at bullying people into paying.
    Originally posted by Sushah
    I've corrected that for you.

    They are very good a bullying, and you need to be very good at ignoring them.

    There is comprehensive guidance on how to deal with debt collectors' letters in post #4 of the NEWBIES thread, but in summary, ignore debt collectors letters.
    .
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Oct 18, 11:05 PM
    • 8,845 Posts
    • 11,719 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 11:05 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 11:05 PM
    Sushah

    You need to send NCP a SAR for all letters sent,
    all photos taken, etc

    Search NCP Privacy on Google, to find who to write the SAR to, and attach your V5C (and NOT say who was driving!).
    Last edited by beamerguy; 13-10-2018 at 11:17 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 14th Oct 18, 12:20 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    Thanks @KeithP.
    Thanks @beamerguy, how will a SAR help? And should I wait for their reply to my appeal before doing this?
    Last edited by Sushah; 14-10-2018 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Correction after some fact finding
    • worried jim
    • By worried jim 14th Oct 18, 12:25 AM
    • 9,589 Posts
    • 14,765 Thanks
    worried jim
    Thanks @KeithP.
    @Beamerguy, What is a SAR?

    If I had checked earlier, I would probably have submitted a stronger appeal. Now I will wait for their response and check back here before doing anything.

    But thanks for the advice so far. It is so helpful.
    Originally posted by Sushah
    A subject access request (SAR) is simply a written request made by or on behalf of an individual for the information which he or she is entitled to ask for under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA). The request does not have to be in any particular form.
    "Only two things are infinite-the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe"
    Albert Einstein
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 14th Oct 18, 12:57 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    Thanks @worried Jim. Will bear that in mind after NCP have responded to my appeal. I’m sure it will all make sense at some point. For now I’m still finding my way around.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 14th Oct 18, 10:41 AM
    • 2,825 Posts
    • 3,553 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    OK ......


    just some background info to further your understanding of this scam ....




    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    and slightly longer, the committee stage

    https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    and some quotes from the committe stage

    "The other area is hospital parking, and I want to single out one company for some pretty shady practices. That is ParkingEye"
    " is very clear to me that there is collusion between parking companies and solicitors’ firms—so-called roboclaims companies. "
    "They are often set up adjacently and involve the same directors and personnel. Incidentally, the same personnel get involved in the so-called appeals bodies."
    "Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise that takes advantage of motorists up and down the country. They operate in a very business-like fashion, which is why I call them roboclaims companies."
    "The companies are jamming up parts of our legal system."
    “I now pretty much know exactly how the parking companies and in particular the IPC have been running this scam for the past 5 years. Basically both of the appeals processes are a complete and utter sham, (and part of that sham is Gladstones Solicitors itself)”
    "The appeals process at Excel/VCS is run by a team of minimum wage office workers with no legal knowledge or experience whatsoever,"
    " It is claimed by the head of the appeals service (retired Judge Bryn Holloway) that this is a completely independent fair process, it is not”
    "The letter mentions two individuals—Will Hurley and Bryn Holloway—and concludes this is a typical example of the clear collusion between the IPC, their members and the IAS"
    "what we can do about roboclaims companies and solicitors firms that profit, often in shady ways"
    " the very large amounts of money that can be involved in such scams—a company called Smart Parking was involved in one such scam on my patch"
    "tightening up the rules regarding the unfair use of automatic number plate recognition" "BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month"
    "They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified."
    " because the lifeblood of trying to extort money from people is having access to their details."

    All from Parking (Code of Practice) Bill (First sitting) Hansard







    Ralph
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Oct 18, 11:25 AM
    • 37,572 Posts
    • 84,512 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thanks @worried Jim. Will bear that in mind after NCP have responded to my appeal. I’m sure it will all make sense at some point. For now I’m still finding my way around.
    Originally posted by Sushah
    It wouldn't hurt to do the SAR now, and the information received may help you with your PoPLA appeal and complaints to the people I mentioned earlier.
    Of course, it may not help, but it means they have to do more work, cost them money, and they may realise that you are savvy enough to beat them.
    Every little helps.

    Have you established yet whether byelaws apply to the car park?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 14th Oct 18, 5:36 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    Not sure whether Byelaws apply. Is that to do with whether NCP own the land or whether they have been appointed by TOC? The car entered High Barnet LU Station Car Park which belongs to London Underground Limited.
    Last edited by Sushah; 14-10-2018 at 6:44 PM.
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 16th Oct 18, 5:52 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    Just received email reply to my appeal and as expected it has been rejected. They have however given me the option to pay a discounted charge within 14 days. No notice to keeper though. So I have a choice -- either to pay or dispute this. In my case there is nothing to dispute - except the fact that the NTK was never sent (or received by me).
    What do you fine folks think -- the parking company might have screwed up, but is it worth the aggravation to fight this?
    • Sushah
    • By Sushah 16th Oct 18, 6:16 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Sushah
    if the driver was on site then the driver should have paid, they did "park" even if it wasnt in a bay and even if the engine was running, they were stopped on a car park or bay or private land, no question


    BUT


    as keeper, unless the PPC can prove liability under POFA2012 they have missed the 14 day deadline for the NTK


    I would have appealed using the blue text template in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, then took it from there


    if this is really an UNDERGROUND car park and so railway land, then POFA2012 does not apply and the pcn "times out" after 6 months as a penalty notice and if that is the case it can only be dealt with in MAGS court if bylaws apply (yes , it is complicated)


    so I am assuming that bylaws apply and after 6 months the TOC can do nothing at all and there is no keeper liability


    so if it isnt cancelled, plus if they fail to issue a POPLA code , string it out as keeper past 6 months


    read other railway station threads, especially INDIGO ones, to see why


    as I said , its complicated. but you did ask !!
    Originally posted by Redx
    They have missed the 14 days NTK deadline. They have also issued a POPLA code. Where do I go from here?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Oct 18, 7:19 PM
    • 9,889 Posts
    • 10,205 Thanks
    KeithP
    They have missed the 14 days NTK deadline. They have also issued a POPLA code. Where do I go from here?
    Originally posted by Sushah
    Then appeal to PoPLA.

    With a late NtK, or bylaws taking precedence, it should be an easy win for a keeper appellant.
    .
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