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  • FIRST POST
    • canonman
    • By canonman 13th Oct 18, 1:24 AM
    • 91Posts
    • 20Thanks
    canonman
    Speeding fine...with a twist!
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 18, 1:24 AM
    Speeding fine...with a twist! 13th Oct 18 at 1:24 AM
    Wondering if anyone can advise further on this situation i have found myself in.

    Story


    I was driving home 7pm 3 months ago down a road i know well, its a back road that passes a village just avoiding an A road. The road passes down a new housing development that is being built. I come round the corner when out rushes this female officer, i thought she was going to jump out, i hit the breaks and she has a speed gun. She was holding it like a shotgun, aims it at me and i continue driving giver her hand gestures.

    I was so angry i nearly stopped! I did however call the Police to complain as this was dangerous and just stupid. I explained how she was hidden behind the car and rushed out to the side of the road to get me, almost like she was busy doing something else and a car came.

    The next day an officer calls me, he asks me for my side of events and i try to explain i drive for a living 200 miles a day never seen an officer pull a stunt like that. He tells me this is a new officer and she was not in a propper traffic car more of a panda car. She has been spoken to regarding this. She said her version of events are different in that she was walking to the road side etc...

    He explained the officer was more than likely performing duty for the community checking speed for statistics etc... not actively enforcing, he tried to say sorry without saying sorry for what had happened. i Explained i was a new bmw and the safety warning came on as she stepped out he said he understood and was sorry for any inconvenience again. He asked if i wanted to continue the complaint i had made. I said no based on what he said.

    Today in the post speeding fine!! 38 in a 30mph (again no signage for this, housing development have removed these i assume)

    My argument
    • I had raised the practice of the the officer months ago
      the reading may be inaccurate as she rushed out
      the road is under development not speed limit signs
      The officer had acknowledged her visibility may not have been clear
      The supervisor has explained they were not out to enforce to me in my initial contact

    I rang the 101 number and asked for this to be looked into again, but i wanted to know from what i have explained is this something i should win?

    many thanks all
Page 1
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 13th Oct 18, 1:54 AM
    • 2,519 Posts
    • 1,682 Thanks
    Johnmcl7
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 18, 1:54 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 18, 1:54 AM
    If there is a regular system of street lighting then there will be no speed limit signs for a 30mph aside from terminal signs. There is no need for the officer to be visible and the laser guns are quick to use, they only require 0.3 of a second to get a reading so it wouldn't be difficult for the officer to have been able to get a reading.

    I'm assuming you don't have any evidence such as a dashcam in which case I do not believe your chances to successfully defend the case to be high.

    I'd recommend going to http://forums.pepipoo.com as it's the best source for motoring legal advice.
    • James2k
    • By James2k 13th Oct 18, 8:10 AM
    • 298 Posts
    • 139 Thanks
    James2k
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:10 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:10 AM
    what a crock, i highly doubt she jumped in front of you.

    you were speeding, pay the fine.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    • 33,138 Posts
    • 20,866 Thanks
    DCFC79
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    Why were you not keeping to the 30mph.
    • Scrapit
    • By Scrapit 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    • 287 Posts
    • 91 Thanks
    Scrapit
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:31 AM
    3 months ago and the nip turned up yesterday? No. Won't stand.
    • Peter999
    • By Peter999 13th Oct 18, 8:34 AM
    • 549 Posts
    • 607 Thanks
    Peter999
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:34 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:34 AM
    They've only got 14 days to send you the speeding ticket, if this was 3 months ago then it is far too late to send you a ticket.


    Is the car registered to you at your address?, or is it leased etc. and this has held up the ticket getting to you.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 13th Oct 18, 8:51 AM
    • 4,154 Posts
    • 4,942 Thanks
    Johno100
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:51 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:51 AM
    Is this two different occasions, the suicidal female copper and now a NIP more recently?
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 13th Oct 18, 8:58 AM
    • 2,135 Posts
    • 1,448 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:58 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:58 AM
    They've only got 14 days to send you the speeding ticket, if this was 3 months ago then it is far too late to send you a ticket.


    Is the car registered to you at your address?, or is it leased etc. and this has held up the ticket getting to you.
    Originally posted by Peter999
    14 days to the registered keeper no one else. So if OP isn't RK the it doesn't apply to him
    • kingstreet
    • By kingstreet 13th Oct 18, 9:07 AM
    • 34,486 Posts
    • 18,726 Thanks
    kingstreet
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 9:07 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 9:07 AM
    Have you received a S172 notice requesting identity of driver?

    If you have, it may be an idea to request "any photographs which may assist with the identification of the driver," without mentioning proof or evidence, as at this time, you are entitled to neither.

    You may get something that helps you determine if this is the same, or a different dated offence and what the police have on you.

    A S172 is 28 day time limited and the clock carries on ticking while you wait for a response, so if it doesn't come, ensure you meet the obligation to name the driver within the time allowed.

    Have someone witness the declaration going in the envelope and obtain proof of postage.
    I am a mortgage broker. You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a Mortgage Adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice. Please do not send PMs asking for one-to-one-advice, or representation.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 13th Oct 18, 9:10 AM
    • 17,771 Posts
    • 45,107 Thanks
    elsien
    So are you still regularly speeding through the area?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 13th Oct 18, 9:14 AM
    • 2,569 Posts
    • 1,585 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    They've only got 14 days to send you the speeding ticket, if this was 3 months ago then it is far too late to send you a ticket.


    Is the car registered to you at your address?, or is it leased etc. and this has held up the ticket getting to you.
    Originally posted by Peter999
    No, they have 14 days to inform you they are considering prosecution. Other than admin time allowing you to pay a speeding ticket could in theory arrive any time within 6 months.
    Hi there! We’ve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if you’re unsure why it’s been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 13th Oct 18, 9:40 AM
    • 3,626 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    Car 54
    Have you received a S172 notice requesting identity of driver?

    If you have, it may be an idea to request "any photographs which may assist with the identification of the driver," without mentioning proof or evidence, as at this time, you are entitled to neither.
    Originally posted by kingstreet
    The offence was reported by an officer using a hand-held 'gun'. There will be no photo.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 13th Oct 18, 9:44 AM
    • 3,626 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    Car 54
    I was driving home 7pm 3 months ago down a road i know well, its a back road that passes a village just avoiding an A road. The road passes down a new housing development that is being built. I come round the corner when out rushes this female officer, i thought she was going to jump out, i hit the breaks and she has a speed gun. She was holding it like a shotgun, aims it at me and i continue driving giver her hand gestures.
    Originally posted by canonman
    Holding it "like a shotgun" needs two hands. Did she have a third hand for the gestures?


    Were the gestures a signal to stop? If so, you've committed another offence.
    • prowla
    • By prowla 13th Oct 18, 10:25 AM
    • 10,109 Posts
    • 8,342 Thanks
    prowla
    Well, I've learned something from this thread; https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits states:
    A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.
    I had previously thought it only applied to built-up areas & roads with street lights; from the HC https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/control-of-the-vehicle.html #124:
    The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit unless otherwise specified.
    The key thing in the HC #125 is:
    A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.
    So, in this case I would say the following might be worth checking out:
    1. Were there any street lights (ie. the limit is 30)?
    2. Were there any signs saying 30 (the OP says not)?
    3. Is a development in progress but not yet opened a "built-up area"?
    4. In the absence of the above, was there a preceding sign stating a higher speed limit applied to that stretch of road?

    Some things which aren't going to help are:
    • The officer rushing out (but not onto) the road is not a mitigation, as the OP doesn't know if they were trying to get them to slow down for a hazard or something; the HC states:
    You must obey signals given by police officers, traffic officers and traffic wardens
    so failing to slow down when/if indicated you should breaks that.
    • Driving 200 miles a day, whilst it may be an indicator of experience, it is not a licence to ignore the law; it can lead to lack of attention.
    (All but the quoted items are my opinion, IANAL, etc.)
    • canonman
    • By canonman 13th Oct 18, 10:28 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    canonman
    Hi all thanks for the reply so far,
    • Its a company car so i assume that's why it has taken so long to get to me!

    what a crock, i highly doubt she jumped in front of you
    - she ran from behind her car,to the side of the car to use her speed gun. The way she moved to the position she stood was dangerous an stupid. Hence why i called to complain.

    https://ibb.co/ent9G9

    To the left is where she was parked and as i drove round the corner just behind me, she was behind the panda car or doing something else, when she "heard" me coming round the corner she then pulled her stunt!

    This road is dead this time of day!


    Why were you not keeping to the 30mph


    I was not, the road changes from 30mph / 40mph quickly and there has never been and sign posts, the sat nav on the BMW and on a tom tom list it as 40mph

    For this i wont be given points i have been offered a course, but i have been driving nearly 8 years 200 miles a day all over the UK and never had a speeding ticket or motoring offence so i intend to keep it that way.

    - Reported this the night of the event
    - Was told by a senior officer that they are not actively enforcing speeding fines
    - Dropped the case based on the officers information
    - Explained there is no clear sign posts for 30mph
    Last edited by canonman; 13-10-2018 at 10:30 AM.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 13th Oct 18, 10:45 AM
    • 2,569 Posts
    • 1,585 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Hi all thanks for the reply so far,
    • Its a company car so i assume that's why it has taken so long to get to me!

    what a crock, i highly doubt she jumped in front of you
    - she ran from behind her car,to the side of the car to use her speed gun. The way she moved to the position she stood was dangerous an stupid. Hence why i called to complain.

    https://ibb.co/ent9G9

    To the left is where she was parked and as i drove round the corner just behind me, she was behind the panda car or doing something else, when she "heard" me coming round the corner she then pulled her stunt!

    This road is dead this time of day!


    Why were you not keeping to the 30mph



    I was not, the road changes from 30mph / 40mph quickly and there has never been and sign posts, the sat nav on the BMW and on a tom tom list it as 40mph

    For this i wont be given points i have been offered a course, but i have been driving nearly 8 years 200 miles a day all over the UK and never had a speeding ticket or motoring offence so i intend to keep it that way.

    - Reported this the night of the event
    - Was told by a senior officer that they are not actively enforcing speeding fines
    - Dropped the case based on the officers information
    - Explained there is no clear sign posts for 30mph
    Originally posted by canonman
    So if you're taking the course what's the point of this thread?
    Hi there! We’ve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if you’re unsure why it’s been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 13th Oct 18, 10:49 AM
    • 2,772 Posts
    • 3,118 Thanks
    TonyMMM
    Assuming you weren't stopped and spoken to at the time - have you ever received a s172 request, addressed to you, where you have confirmed that you were the driver at the time ?

    If not - how have you now received an offer of a course ?


    Assuming you did confirm that you were driving, then you need to decide whether to take the course or not (if you don't it will proceed to court where you can give your evidence). The offer of the course will be time limited, so don't delay too much on this.

    Note that your defence needs to be concentrated on showing that you were not speeding - the actions of the officer may have been poor for all sorts of reasons but that doesn't necessarily prevent your prosecution, make their evidence invalid, nor alter the facts about your speed.

    If you think the limit on the road is incorrect or not signed properly then get the evidence to show that - look at the TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) which sets the limit - and learn what the law is on the way a 30mph limit is shown (e.g. what signage is allowed or required).

    It appears from the screenshot that there is a system of streetlighting which means 30mph (unless otherwise indicated).If you post a link to the actual location on googlemaps then a better view of the limit can be given
    Last edited by TonyMMM; 13-10-2018 at 10:53 AM.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 13th Oct 18, 11:55 AM
    • 3,626 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    Car 54
    [QUOTE=prowla;74910771]I had previously thought it only applied to built-up areas & roads with street lights; from the HC https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/control-of-the-vehicle.html #124:So, in this case I would say the following might be worth checking out:
    1. Were there any street lights (ie. the limit is 30)?
    2. Were there any signs saying 30 (the OP says not)?
    3. Is a development in progress but not yet opened a "built-up area"?
    [QUOTE]


    1. Yes, from the photo supplied in post #15

    2. In a "restricted road" (i.e. with street-lighting) 30 mph repeater signs are unnecessary, and indeed prohibited. There must be terminal sign(s), but their absence is not in itself a defence.

    3. Whether or not an area is "built-up" has no bearing on speed limits.
    • sevenhills
    • By sevenhills 13th Oct 18, 12:14 PM
    • 1,836 Posts
    • 703 Thanks
    sevenhills
    1. Yes, from the photo supplied in post #15

    2. In a "restricted road" (i.e. with street-lighting) 30 mph repeater signs are unnecessary, and indeed prohibited. There must be terminal sign(s), but their absence is not in itself a defence.

    3. Whether or not an area is "built-up" has no bearing on speed limits.
    Originally posted by Car 54

    Is there a need for speed camera warning signs?

    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 13th Oct 18, 12:23 PM
    • 3,626 Posts
    • 2,242 Thanks
    Car 54
    Is there a need for speed camera warning signs?
    Originally posted by sevenhills
    There was no speed camera! And in any case, there is never a need.
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