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    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 12th Oct 18, 11:08 PM
    • 16Posts
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    dementia_barclays
    Barclays taking house off 76yr old with Dementia, as Interest Only Mortgage has expired
    • #1
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:08 PM
    Barclays taking house off 76yr old with Dementia, as Interest Only Mortgage has expired 12th Oct 18 at 11:08 PM
    My mum has had a mortgage for 45 years. It represents 17% of it's value.
    They don't want to continue it, once it reached the end of it's term, even after agreeing to continue it in May of this year. We only get to know a repossession court date is due on 30th of this month, 10 days ago. Barclays know she was staying with me over summer and it was only a neighbour checking post, that alerted us.
    (Barclays has made it very difficult for me to assist my mum on the issue)

    They wanted a message from the doctor, which they got, now they changed their mind and want a more formal letter via the post. Before 'possibly' reconsidering.

    Her rate was/is a minimum of 5% and went higher when rates increased recently. So they are earning well from her. Plus she paid off two loans they sold her, to pay off overdrafts, they kept letting her fill up! Until we asked them to stop. Both stink of miss selling.

    The impact of this will worry her, cause her to fear leaving her home and disrupt her recuperation with us. An effort that took her from being skin and bones, close to death (even with carers/social workers visiting), to eating and being more healthy.
Page 1
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 12th Oct 18, 11:45 PM
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    Thrugelmir
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:45 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:45 PM
    Seems as if you are skirting round the real issue, i.e. how the mortgage is going to be repaid. Do you have POA over your mothers affairs.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 12th Oct 18, 11:52 PM
    • 16 Posts
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    dementia_barclays
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:52 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:52 PM
    Thanks Thrugelmir

    No... but if they align that one mortgage to her other which ends in 2025, she is likely to have passed on. Meaning its sale will repay their 17%

    She is Scottish... wiry & stubborn,
    so will never willingly go into a home or relinquish control

    Hopefully Barclays will see sense
    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 13th Oct 18, 12:13 AM
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    dementia_barclays
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 12:13 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 18, 12:13 AM
    Barclays did ask how long will it be, before she is dead
    (she has 'Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease' too, so that might please them!)
    Last edited by dementia_barclays; 13-10-2018 at 12:15 AM.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 13th Oct 18, 7:39 AM
    • 5,276 Posts
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    csgohan4
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 7:39 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 18, 7:39 AM
    It's nothing personal but it's business, they are not a charity and your mother signed a contract regarding the mortgage and your mother got extra loans which was her choice.


    You have to decide the long term outlook, how is she going to repay the mortgage after the term ended?


    Selling up and downsizing will be the reasonable option, being stubborn or having dementia will not stop the bank repossessing, they need their loan repaid, just as if you lent someone money and agreed a date to be paid back. You can try and delay things but the money has to be repaid eventually.


    People live many years with COPD and she is still young.
    Last edited by csgohan4; 13-10-2018 at 7:42 AM.
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Oct 18, 8:04 AM
    • 11,828 Posts
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    AnotherJoe
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:04 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:04 AM
    Thanks Thrugelmir

    No... but if they align that one mortgage to her other which ends in 2025, she is likely to have passed on. Meaning its sale will repay their 17%

    She is Scottish... wiry & stubborn,
    so will never willingly go into a home or relinquish control
    Originally posted by dementia_barclays
    She's gone into your home, doesn't seem capable of living in hers even with support (from what you've posted) and appears to have relinquished control to you to manage her finances because she wasn't doing a great job when she was looking after them herself (again, from what you've posted)?

    Plenty of people with dementia go into homes unwillingly, probably most in fact. Thats a feature of the condition. At the moment she/you seem to be paying 5% interest for her home to be empty on what might be the tenuous grounds that "one day" she'll go back when that seems unlikely.

    If you'd like that to continue then probably adverse publicity (hence your user name no doubt) is your main grounds for hoping Barclays will allow it to continue, but there are hundreds of thousands of people in your parents position who took no account of how to repay their mortgage when they started it are the banks meant to give them all a pass? (though, on 5% interest you'd think they ought to be only to happy to)

    FWIW I dont think Barclays were being harsh asking about your mums health, no point redeeming the mortgage if it wont be needed near term, but my mum had a serious and inoperable heart condition from her 60's. She lived until age 92.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • amersall
    • By amersall 13th Oct 18, 8:11 AM
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    amersall
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:11 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:11 AM
    If I were in your position I would sell, seems like there is no other option. I agree with the other posters replies regarding this.

    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
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    AnotherJoe
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
    p.s. any reason you cant raise the mortgage amount yourself by increasing your mortgage? Then pay off mums mortgage with a loan to her (so it remains your money otherwise social services may nab it) she pays you so you repay your loan with those payments, and at least its going to be at half the interest rate so yo could move to a repayment mortgage.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
    • 17,764 Posts
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    elsien
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 18, 8:28 AM
    Before your mum developed dementia, having had a mortgage for 45 years she must have known that at some point the capital would be due.
    What was her plan for paying it off?

    You say Barclays are making it difficult for you to deal with this on mums behalf. They are probably not being awkward but following the law.
    Having a dementia diagnosis does not automatically mean your mum lacks capacity to deal with her own finances and the presumption is that someone has capacity unless it can be evidenced otherwise.
    If mum has capacity then she writes a letter authorising them to speak to you on her behalf. And then very quickly does a power of attorney for when she becomes more unwell.
    If she's already lost capacity and there isn't a power of attorney then you are probably going to need to apply for a deputyship which is not a quick process and has associated costs.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • ACG
    • By ACG 13th Oct 18, 9:59 AM
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    ACG
    I always struggle with things like this, your mother made an application in the knowledge that at the end of however many years she would need to clear the Mortgage. Now because it does not suit you are complaining.

    Barclays are sticking to their end of the deal. Personally, I think the whole idea of doing interest only until 75+ is dangerous unless there is a savings plan in place (rather than downsizing)... But that is just my opinion.

    As suggested above, rather than fight Barclays which is just going to add to any stress why not find an alternative?

    - Equity release (that could eat in to any equity - although some ER providers do allow interest only repayments).
    - Another interest only mortgage (sometimes referred to as RIO - Retirement interest only) - Your mother would need to evidence an income even if it is only a pension.
    I am a Mortgage Adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 13th Oct 18, 11:19 AM
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    dunstonh
    Barclays taking house off 76yr old with Dementia, as Interest Only Mortgage has expired
    Removing all emotion from the scenario, then what is the problem with that?

    Mortgage has ended and needs repaying. What is going to repay it? A 45 year mortgage worth 17% of the value suggests that there was probably further advances made over the years. Using the equity as a cash machine possibly. What plans were put in place to repay those mortgages? She wouldnt have had dementia back then. So, being of sound mind, how did she intend to repay.

    The responses on the thread are likely to be focused and without emotion. Nobody else here has any emotional attachment to this and is looking at the cold hard facts. So, don't take the responses negatively. They are purely to keep it short and understandable without having to write paragraphs to wrap you up in cotton wool.

    They don't want to continue it, once it reached the end of it's term, even after agreeing to continue it in May of this year.
    Mortgages are a fixed term product. There is an allowance made for upto 12 months (as things like endowments don't always mature at the same time as the mortgage). Subject to lending criteria, a lender may approve a new mortgage to replace it.

    (Barclays has made it very difficult for me to assist my mum on the issue)

    They wanted a message from the doctor, which they got, now they changed their mind and want a more formal letter via the post. Before 'possibly' reconsidering.
    Barclays are complying with the law. A lot of firms have changed the way they deal with things like this when the DPA became the GDPR earlier this year. Most things have tightened up with the GDPR and made more formal.

    Her rate was/is a minimum of 5% and went higher when rates increased recently. So they are earning well from her. Plus she paid off two loans they sold her, to pay off overdrafts, they kept letting her fill up! Until we asked them to stop. Both stink of miss selling.
    Nothing you have said suggests misselling. Maybe you can expand on that so we can see if there is a case or not (very few do and most misselling allegations fail).

    so will never willingly go into a home or relinquish control
    But she is no longer in her home and because of dementia, she is gradually relinquishing control. Sadly that is inevitable. Horrible scenario.

    Two options come to mind here.
    1 - Equity release
    2 - sell up
    A technical third of repossession is undesirable and expensive and should aim to be avoided.

    Depending on the stage of dementia and with no power of attorney, it will soon start getting expensive if you need the courts to make the decisions for her.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 13th Oct 18, 12:47 PM
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    enthusiasticsaver
    As the mortgage is being charged at 5% and your mum has no plans to repay it and is not liv8ng there I would sell it. Going to court for repossession will mean you incur costs so this is better dealt with in a way where you have control. Your mum is obviously pretty ill but there is still no telling when she will die and if she is staying with you is this long term? If it is then why keep the house anyway?
    Debt free and mortgage free and early retiree. Living the dream

    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Mortgages and Endowments, Banking and Budgeting boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Pease remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Oct 18, 12:56 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    As the mortgage is being charged at 5% and your mum has no plans to repay it and is not liv8ng there I would sell it. Going to court for repossession will mean you incur costs so this is better dealt with in a way where you have control. Your mum is obviously pretty ill but there is still no telling when she will die and if she is staying with you is this long term? If it is then why keep the house anyway?
    Originally posted by enthusiasticsaver

    I'd be sure its because there is no POA, so the OP cant sell it, and mum isn't going to sell her house voluntarily because thats what old people tend to hang onto however illogical (and thats without dementia destroying their judgement).

    Unfortunately OP failed to get POA before mum needed it, and maybe mum being stubborn wouldnt give it anyway, just like she didnt create a way to finish up the IO mortgage (and there's a 2025 mortgage as well that might be similar?)


    So OP is stuck between a rock and a hard place due to "younger mums" actions, and is blaming Barclays instead.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 13th Oct 18, 1:21 PM
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    Thrugelmir
    Hopefully Barclays will see sense
    Originally posted by dementia_barclays
    Your mother agreed to repay the debt on xx date. That's the nature of signing a legallly binding contract. No game is being played.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 13th Oct 18, 3:59 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    dementia_barclays
    Thank you all
    Barclays are not a charity, but 5.5% is good for them & repos stats must count against them & their decision making (it should).
    She got house during a split (single since) and was never savvy (hence accepting 5% minimum), two thirds of the current mortgage went to pay off a bank loan of a few thousand when she opened a shop 30 years ago, after it ballooned to tens of thousands.

    She might have had an endowment, not sure, but it is well gone.
    Mortgage will be paid off when she dies, which even though young at 76, it looks to be pretty soon. Especially if she gets wind of this problem (it will worry her to death)
    She won't settle anywhere else, so her home, with me may be necessary.

    Better than forcing her elsewhere, if not needed.
    Of Interest Only clients, many will not have Dementia.
    I hope all ones with it get a stay of execution, when they have no 'decent' finance options and were victims to the endowment miss selling.
    (I feel shame, having worked in an Estate Agent, personally receiving & hearing, the promises of guaranteed payouts - but then I was never cut out for finance)

    Barclays were awkward by not suggesting a 'letter of authority' for many many months, then accepting it one moment but not the next. Lacking mental capacity or not, apart, it is so easy for them to continue the status quo.
    Anything else will damage her health.
    Even if just with a short time limit & especially after agreeing to in May.
    30 days notice, since changing their mind, is nothing.

    On miss selling... they allowed her to run up a 1,200 overdraft.
    Once she could not afford to pay it off, they gave her a personal 'expensive' loan. Then they gave her another 1,200 overdraft.
    Once that had been used up and she could not repay it, they sold her another loan. Again, giving her another 1,200 overdraft.
    We asked them to stop providing further loans/overdrafts.
    Once it was all paid off, they closed her account.
    Surely, Loan Sharks, are the only ones that add expensive lending to a vulnerable person in debt?
    (it was common knowledge and a joke between cashiers, that she kept losing her cards and was 'dotty')?

    Cl!usula Suelo

    Barclays selling 'fixed minimum rate mortgages', as mum appears to have, was found to be 'miss-selling' in Spain

    theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/08/spanish-consumers-win-victory-over-mortgage-payments-barclays-santander-class-action
    Banks including Barclays and Santander face a €5bn (£4bn) bill after a Spanish court ruled that millions of fixed minimum rate mortgages were null and void because of the “lack of transparency” in the way they were sold

    26 April - European Court of Justice in Strasbourg, has ruled that the banks must return everything charged for, under the 'fixed minimum rate' clause.
    Last edited by dementia_barclays; 13-10-2018 at 5:16 PM.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 13th Oct 18, 6:14 PM
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    dunstonh
    Barclays are not a charity, but 5.5% is good for them & repos stats must count against them & their decision making (it should).
    it may be good for them but the mortgage has ended. So, it would need a new mortgage and she doesnt appear to meet current mortgage criteria. this isnt like an overdraft than can be casually extended. This requires a new mortgage agreement.

    On miss selling... they allowed her to run up a 1,200 overdraft.
    An overdraft has nothing to do with a mortgage. It is also unsecured debt and not a very big amount. So, that is a red herring and can be ignored.

    Once she could not afford to pay it off, they gave her a personal 'expensive' loan. Then they gave her another 1,200 overdraft.
    Personal loans are cheaper than overdraft.

    you are not given an overdraft. The person has to spend the money to get into a position of overdraft. The bank didnt spend her money. She did.

    Surely, Loan Sharks, are the only ones that add expensive lending to a vulnerable person in debt?
    Since when is 5% expensive?
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 13th Oct 18, 6:23 PM
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    Thrugelmir
    Barclays are not a charity, but 5.5% is good for them & repos stats must count against them & their decision making (it should).
    Originally posted by dementia_barclays
    How much is the debt owed? The potential profit that you are alluding to needs to be put into perspective. Micro managing delinquent customer accounts doesn't come cheap.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 13th Oct 18, 6:36 PM
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    dementia_barclays
    79K mortgage. Sure... but communicating, especially co-operating with relatives when a client has Dementia, could reduce many issues. Privacy apart. Even a text message that a DD has failed or been cancelled, would help.

    Let alone, after being accepted on the account, an email or call to say... we are stealing your property in 30 days!
    Last edited by dementia_barclays; 13-10-2018 at 6:40 PM.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 13th Oct 18, 6:37 PM
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    antrobus
    ...

    ...
    Barclays selling 'fixed minimum rate mortgages', as mum appears to have, was found to be 'miss-selling' in Spain

    theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/08/spanish-consumers-win-victory-over-mortgage-payments-barclays-santander-class-action
    Banks including Barclays and Santander face a €5bn (£4bn) bill after a Spanish court ruled that millions of fixed minimum rate mortgages were null and void because of the “lack of transparency” in the way they were sold

    26 April - European Court of Justice in Strasbourg, has ruled that the banks must return everything charged for, under the 'fixed minimum rate' clause.
    Originally posted by dementia_barclays
    Mmm. Yes, well. Unless your mother was sold a mortgage with a fixed minimum monthly payment in Spain, then that is utterly irrelevant.(A fixed rate is not a fixed minimum monthly payment on a variable rate.)

    I'd echo what other posters have suggested. Sell the house and repay the mortgage. She has dementia. She needs care. Use the proceeds to pay for the care she needs.
    • dementia_barclays
    • By dementia_barclays 13th Oct 18, 6:43 PM
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    dementia_barclays
    Hers goes up (not fixed), gone up approx half a percent this month
    But only goes down to 5% (minimum rate)
    Sounds like a 'fixed minimum rate mortgage'

    Won't have time to sell house, if they take it from her in 17 days
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