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  • FIRST POST
    • andrewg112
    • By andrewg112 12th Oct 18, 11:35 AM
    • 19Posts
    • 5Thanks
    andrewg112
    Theatre Lights - Not suitable
    • #1
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:35 AM
    Theatre Lights - Not suitable 12th Oct 18 at 11:35 AM
    A little advice needed here ... think we are correct in what we are saying.

    I am involved with a community theatre who recently accessed some funding to purchase two 'follow-spots' (Basically the lights at the back, operated by a person who 'follow' people around the stage). We purchased two of them from a reputable supplier, brand new for around 2000. All was well, we looked at the specs on offer and price and we purchased them over the telephone. A month or so passed and the units arrived brand new, no issues here at all. The day after delivery we used them for the first time, but the light output is simply are not bright enough for us, with all our other theatrical lighting on they are washed out and not fit for our purpose.

    We contacted the seller to arrange a return and refund so we can use our money to actually buy a product that is more suitable for what we want. Nothing faulty with the item, just not suitable for our application.

    The supplier has now said to us that they won't take them back as a straight forward return. When questioned for further details on this they said that the management of the company want to send out a rep to look at the units in situ and see if they are suitable or not and then they MAY be able to arrange a return IF they also think they are not suitable. The reason for this is they say they were 'purchased to order'.

    We have a good relationship with this company, but these units are of no use to us. To avoid upsetting them I have suggested we welcome the reps down and show them exactly what the issues are. But am I correct in thinking that under consumer law we are entitled to a full return and refund as the product is not personalised in any way, and was purchased without seeing it.

    Thanks,
    Andrew.
Page 1
    • bigisi
    • By bigisi 12th Oct 18, 11:39 AM
    • 480 Posts
    • 849 Thanks
    bigisi
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:39 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:39 AM
    A little advice needed here ... think we are correct in what we are saying.

    I am involved with a community theatre who recently accessed some funding to purchase two 'follow-spots' (Basically the lights at the back, operated by a person who 'follow' people around the stage). We purchased two of them from a reputable supplier, brand new for around 2000. All was well, we looked at the specs on offer and price and we purchased them over the telephone. A month or so passed and the units arrived brand new, no issues here at all. The day after delivery we used them for the first time, but the light output is simply are not bright enough for us, with all our other theatrical lighting on they are washed out and not fit for our purpose.

    We contacted the seller to arrange a return and refund so we can use our money to actually buy a product that is more suitable for what we want. Nothing faulty with the item, just not suitable for our application.

    The supplier has now said to us that they won't take them back as a straight forward return. When questioned for further details on this they said that the management of the company want to send out a rep to look at the units in situ and see if they are suitable or not and then they MAY be able to arrange a return IF they also think they are not suitable. The reason for this is they say they were 'purchased to order'.

    We have a good relationship with this company, but these units are of no use to us. To avoid upsetting them I have suggested we welcome the reps down and show them exactly what the issues are. But am I correct in thinking that under consumer law we are entitled to a full return and refund as the product is not personalised in any way, and was purchased without seeing it.

    Thanks,
    Andrew.
    Originally posted by andrewg112
    Sounds like you bought as a business so "consumer" laws don't apply. You will rely on the contract between you and the seller. What does that say about non-faulty returns?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Oct 18, 11:41 AM
    • 4,885 Posts
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    waamo
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:41 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:41 AM
    I would suspect a community theatre is likely to be classed as a business as opposed to a straight forward consumer.

    As a business you lose certain consumer rights and are essentially bound by any terms and conditions you agree to.
    This space for hire.
    • andrewg112
    • By andrewg112 12th Oct 18, 11:42 AM
    • 19 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    andrewg112
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:42 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:42 AM
    Ah, thanks for that. I will need to check that out. We are a community organisation but a LTD company. Im sure thats not going to be helpful !!
    • NotRichAtAll
    • By NotRichAtAll 12th Oct 18, 2:00 PM
    • 783 Posts
    • 674 Thanks
    NotRichAtAll
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:00 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:00 PM
    we looked at the specs on offer and price and we purchased them over the telephone
    but you looked over the specs

    washed out and not fit for our purpose
    am pretty sure the lights will be fit for purpose, just not in your place. Whoever looked at the specs is maybe not fit to look at specs
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 12th Oct 18, 2:51 PM
    • 3,231 Posts
    • 4,339 Thanks
    George Michael
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:51 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:51 PM
    but the light output is simply are not bright enough for us, with all our other theatrical lighting on they are washed out and not fit for our purpose.
    Originally posted by andrewg112
    No light output makes them not fit for purpose.
    Not enough light output because of the other lights you have makes them not suitable for purpose.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Oct 18, 3:34 PM
    • 4,885 Posts
    • 6,327 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 18, 3:34 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 18, 3:34 PM
    Ah, thanks for that. I will need to check that out. We are a community organisation but a LTD company. Im sure thats not going to be helpful !!
    Originally posted by andrewg112
    As a limited company you would face an uphill struggle to argue you weren't a business.
    This space for hire.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 12th Oct 18, 4:59 PM
    • 16,118 Posts
    • 22,178 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 4:59 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 4:59 PM
    Were these a replacement for previous lights or a new thing?

    If a new thing, did you take guidance over the phone from the company e.g the lights must surely have some sort of output that refers to lux per meter, or in relation to the inverse square law of light? (So you can calculate the spread of light at your required distance).

    If you had a discussion on the phone about your requirements then the company need to take some responsibility in making sure they are fit for purpose.

    I would go with their suggestion of having someone coming to take a look.
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • fewgroats
    • By fewgroats 12th Oct 18, 5:12 PM
    • 507 Posts
    • 314 Thanks
    fewgroats
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 5:12 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 5:12 PM
    Could something be made from the fact it wasn't the theatre's money? Maybe if it came from one individual you could say they purchased the lights?
    Advent Challenge: Money made: 0. Days to Christmas: 59.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 12th Oct 18, 6:58 PM
    • 11,256 Posts
    • 9,627 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    Could something be made from the fact it wasn't the theatre's money? Maybe if it came from one individual you could say they purchased the lights?
    Originally posted by fewgroats
    But it was for the theatre's use and the product would probably be expected to be used by a theatre or similar rather than an individual.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 12th Oct 18, 10:20 PM
    • 16,570 Posts
    • 12,712 Thanks
    hollydays
    but you looked over the specs



    am pretty sure the lights will be fit for purpose, just not in your place. Whoever looked at the specs is maybe not fit to look at specs
    Originally posted by NotRichAtAll
    ^^^^^^^^
    This
    I'm thinking it's a learning curve.
    • Les79
    • By Les79 13th Oct 18, 12:07 AM
    • 686 Posts
    • 755 Thanks
    Les79
    Could something be made from the fact it wasn't the theatre's money? Maybe if it came from one individual you could say they purchased the lights?
    Originally posted by fewgroats
    Well, what do the company accounts reflect it as?

    I have a fairly limited knowledge of accounting (AAT basic level) but a LTD company gaining an "asset" needs to have a corresponding record in the company accounts to offset it.

    Examples include:

    - One of the shareholders* providing capital (ie a shareholder* used their own money to buy the item; are you a shareholder*?) to the business for purchase of an asset.

    - The company using their cash in the bank to purchase an asset (by asking a third party/you to purchase it and then reimbursing you at a later date).

    Either that or you gifted the theatre a set of lights? That would in itself bring a different set of challenges, and would be somewhat far-fetched in your specific case.

    *I say shareholder but in reality I'm not 100% if this is the correct terminology, but I effectively mean anyone who can pump money into the business as the owner.
    • ThumbRemote
    • By ThumbRemote 13th Oct 18, 8:01 AM
    • 3,939 Posts
    • 4,996 Thanks
    ThumbRemote
    Ah, thanks for that. I will need to check that out. We are a community organisation but a LTD company. Im sure thats not going to be helpful !!
    Originally posted by andrewg112
    If the lights were paid for by the limited company (eg using the company credit card) then it's a business purchase.

    If they were bought by an individual using their own credit card, with the intention of being reimbursed later by the organisation, then you may be able to claim it's a private consumer purchase. Not sure how far you'll get with this, but it's your only hope of claiming consumer rather than business rights.
    • andrewg112
    • By andrewg112 18th Oct 18, 9:18 AM
    • 19 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    andrewg112
    Thanks for all of your replies.

    Yes - specs were looked at and technically speaking this product should be more than suitable for us.

    These have been purchased as a LTD company ...

    We have suggested the rep comes to visit us and bring a few other lamps, as these are sold separately it could be that the wrong items were supplied or incorrectly labeled.

    Thanks,
    Andrew
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