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  • FIRST POST
    • Walrond21
    • By Walrond21 11th Oct 18, 9:01 PM
    • 2Posts
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    Walrond21
    Child abduction really?
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:01 PM
    Child abduction really? 11th Oct 18 at 9:01 PM
    Hi guys, I have been separated from my children's father for 7 years but he is really hard work. I have just booked our first holiday abroad which cost a fortune might I add. After telling their father he said as his name is on birth certificates he will claim I am abducting them!
    He does not want me to go through jealousy. I cannot afford mediation and it doesn't get covered by legal aid.
    What can I do?
Page 1
    • Spendless
    • By Spendless 11th Oct 18, 9:07 PM
    • 20,473 Posts
    • 34,119 Thanks
    Spendless
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:07 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:07 PM
    Here's a link about it.

    https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 11th Oct 18, 9:43 PM
    • 16,118 Posts
    • 22,178 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:43 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:43 PM
    Hi guys, I have been separated from my children's father for 7 years but he is really hard work. I have just booked our first holiday abroad which cost a fortune might I add. After telling their father he said as his name is on birth certificates he will claim I am abducting them!
    He does not want me to go through jealousy. I cannot afford mediation and it doesn't get covered by legal aid.
    What can I do?
    Originally posted by Walrond21
    If their father has parental responsibility then you need his permission to take them abroad.

    Surely you would expect him to ask your permission to take them abroad if he was looking after them for a week?

    Does he see them on a regular basis?

    As you have already booked it, all you can do is beg, as he could make this very awkward. Offer him additional time with them?

    Has he put it in writing what he intends to do?
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 11th Oct 18, 9:53 PM
    • 5,858 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:53 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 9:53 PM
    Basically he’s correct; you would want the same.
    • Rubik
    • By Rubik 12th Oct 18, 9:02 AM
    • 298 Posts
    • 617 Thanks
    Rubik
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:02 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:02 AM
    Would the holiday impact on his arranged time with the children? Are there any current court orders relating to the children?

    If you have a pre-2014 Residence Order, or a Child Arrangements Order that states the children live with you, then consent isn't required as you can legally take the children out of the UK for up to 28 days. If there are no orders, then consent is required.

    The first step would be to write to your ex, and request that he gives consent for you to take the children out of the UK for a holiday. You don't need to give him full details, but the dates and country would be relevant. Focus on the fact that the holiday is for the children, and that they would benefit from a break, as well as being able to enjoy the experience of enjoying the cultural aspects of being in another country. If he refuses, without reason, then apply for an Specific Issue Order that would give you leave (permission) from the court to take the children out of the UK for holidays. It is possible to have a "blanket" order that covers all holidays until the children are 16. Family holidays are usually seen by the court as beneficial to the children.. If he is so minded, he could apply for a Prohibited Steps Order to prevent you from taking the children out of the UK, but unless you are a flight risk, have threatened to remove the children permanently previously, or are planning a holiday in a war zone, it's very unlikely that his application will be successful.
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 12th Oct 18, 9:17 AM
    • 2,772 Posts
    • 3,118 Thanks
    TonyMMM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:17 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:17 AM
    Assuming the children were registered after 1 Dec 2003 than by being named on the birth certificate he automatically has joint parental responsibility and, unless any court orders are in place, you do need his consent to take them abroad.
    • LandyAndy
    • By LandyAndy 12th Oct 18, 9:41 AM
    • 24,556 Posts
    • 51,800 Thanks
    LandyAndy
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:41 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 18, 9:41 AM
    Another 'post and run' newbie not getting (I imagine) the desired reply.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 12th Oct 18, 11:10 AM
    • 4,980 Posts
    • 11,233 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:10 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 11:10 AM
    Another 'post and run' newbie not getting (I imagine) the desired reply.
    Originally posted by LandyAndy
    It's been 12 hours since the OP. Seems a bit early to reach that conclusion.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
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    • calleyw
    • By calleyw 12th Oct 18, 2:36 PM
    • 8,928 Posts
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    calleyw
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:36 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:36 PM
    It's been 12 hours since the OP. Seems a bit early to reach that conclusion.
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99

    Surely you can't mean the OP actually has a life and does not spend all their time on MSE


    Yours


    Calley x
    Hope for everything and expect nothing!!!

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    • phryne
    • By phryne 12th Oct 18, 3:28 PM
    • 444 Posts
    • 727 Thanks
    phryne
    It's been 12 hours since the OP. Seems a bit early to reach that conclusion.
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99


    Indeed. Most people don't and can't spend all their time posting on a message board!
    • t_obermory
    • By t_obermory 12th Oct 18, 4:43 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 330 Thanks
    t_obermory
    If you're travelling with children without both parents being there you're supposed to take a letter with you from the other parent giving their permission for you to travel. The link below got loads of info.

    https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

    However I've been abroad several times with my children, without their dad, each time I've taken a letter and I've never once been asked for it.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Oct 18, 4:48 PM
    • 5,858 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    Comms69
    If you're travelling with children without both parents being there you're supposed to take a letter with you from the other parent giving their permission for you to travel. The link below got loads of info.

    https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

    However I've been abroad several times with my children, without their dad, each time I've taken a letter and I've never once been asked for it.
    Originally posted by t_obermory
    To be honest it's mostly a read herring. It's usual if you have different surnames, but otherwise...
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 12th Oct 18, 5:40 PM
    • 3,967 Posts
    • 10,701 Thanks
    LilElvis
    If you're travelling with children without both parents being there you're supposed to take a letter with you from the other parent giving their permission for you to travel. The link below got loads of info.

    https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

    However I've been abroad several times with my children, without their dad, each time I've taken a letter and I've never once been asked for it.
    Originally posted by t_obermory
    To be honest it's mostly a read herring. It's usual if you have different surnames, but otherwise...
    Originally posted by Comms69
    We got held up at passport control at Hannover airport 2 months ago because a father was travelling with his two children, but without the mother. There were lots of frantic phonecalls being made by the father but they didn't make it onto the flight.

    In March we saw a teenage girl and her grandparents being taken to an immigration interview room in Johannesburg because they had a letter from the mother, but not the father, and also didn't have a copy of her birth certificate. Families have been denied boarding at Heathrow for flights to South Africa if they don't have birth certificates with them as the airline would be liable for returning them to the UK if they are refused entry to SA. It's all down to the SA government trying to crack down on child trafficking - though I doubt that many white children are being trafficked into their country.

    I didn't change my name when I got married so my daughter has a different surname to me. I was asked for proof that I was her parent and that I had her father's permission to leave the country both when I was leaving the UK and entering Spain, but no checks at all on our return.

    I certainly wouldn't assume that you could get away with it, especially as it could be very costly if they are diligent.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Oct 18, 6:28 PM
    • 17,049 Posts
    • 41,978 Thanks
    FBaby
    South Africa is a red herring and sadly fathers do indeed get a harder time. However I travelled abroad numerous time with my children and was only once asked about father's permission when they were still very young. I just said he didn't have parental responsibility and as they are born before 2003 they didn't questioned further.

    Depending on where you go and the age of the kids you might or might not be asked. The risk though is if goes to court and applies for a restricting order. He can do so very easily and cheaply. The question is whether he would go to that e tree?

    Are you taking the kids out of school and that's the reason why he won't agree?
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 12th Oct 18, 7:39 PM
    • 19,943 Posts
    • 46,154 Thanks
    peachyprice
    TBH, this letter you're supposed to take is a farce.

    It is not certified, it doesn't need supporting evidence that it was actually written by the non-travelling parent and 9 times out of 10 it's never even asked for.

    Not once in 20+ years of travelling with my children with a different surname to me was I ever asked for such a thing. The nearest I ever got was a passport control officer asking my daughter where her dad was and my sons who have a non-English surname were asked some random questions, I'm sure just so the officer could hear whether or not they were English.
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • Walrond21
    • By Walrond21 12th Oct 18, 11:30 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Walrond21
    Hi thanks for your reply. We do have a court order in place and he does have regular contact with the children.
    My issue is that he is very controlling and unreasonable and will do anything to make our lives harder.
    I have offered him extra contact as he will miss one of his mid week nights. This is usually not a problem when the other way round to benefit him but not when its for me or childrens benefit.
    I will look into the points you have made and see if that will help. I have fully informed him that it is only 7 nights but he is still being unreasonable
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 13th Oct 18, 7:52 AM
    • 16,570 Posts
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    hollydays
    And he has told you he will not give his permission because....?
    Last edited by hollydays; 13-10-2018 at 7:54 AM.
    • Rubik
    • By Rubik 13th Oct 18, 8:59 AM
    • 298 Posts
    • 617 Thanks
    Rubik
    If your Child Arrangements Order states the children live with you, you don't need his consent to take the children out of the jurisdiction for a 7 night holiday. The sticking point is that if the CAO states he is to have certain nights and you don't make the children available for that night, he could say you are in breach of the order. Usually deliberate breaches are established with a pattern rather than a single event. You've offered him an additional night which is fine.

    A half hour with a solicitor might be a good idea, if only for reassurance.
    • determined new ms
    • By determined new ms 14th Oct 18, 7:17 PM
    • 7,066 Posts
    • 41,716 Thanks
    determined new ms
    If your Child Arrangements Order states the children live with you, you don't need his consent to take the children out of the jurisdiction for a 7 night holiday. The sticking point is that if the CAO states he is to have certain nights and you don't make the children available for that night, he could say you are in breach of the order. Usually deliberate breaches are established with a pattern rather than a single event. You've offered him an additional night which is fine.

    A half hour with a solicitor might be a good idea, if only for reassurance.
    Originally posted by Rubik
    We have a CAO for our dgd. When going on holiday I always get a letter of consent, even though it's not technically needed, just to be safe. I don't actually need her consent and a court wouldn't view missing one contact in these circumstances negative when balanced by the gains coming from a holiday.

    It's a real pain for you op, but given we have similar orders I think you can just go ahead with the holiday. Did you offer the extra contact through email? If not I would be minded to send one as evidence if he did decide to take this back to court. In fairness I do always offer an additional contact after a holiday if one was missed.

    Mediation may be a good way forward. You could look for private counsellors that offer it as an alternative, the official service is very expensive. It's a tight rope sharing parental responsibility with someone who you do not have a good relationship with. My relationship with my dd after the custody case was difficult but we've all worked towards dealing with our feelings in the interest of lo
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    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 15th Oct 18, 10:49 PM
    • 2,294 Posts
    • 3,361 Thanks
    badmemory
    This is obviously very many years ago, but on my divorce with joint custody for my child I was told that I needed the father's permission to take him out of the country, this is on holiday not to live. As things are now a lot tighter than they were then I feel sure that with joint custody you do need permission - sole custody is quite different.


    Please don't think that you can just do it anyway, as that way will no doubt lead to trouble & give the ex more power than you want him to have.
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