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  • FIRST POST
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 11th Oct 18, 3:07 PM
    • 118Posts
    • 179Thanks
    abedegno
    Yet Another Markham Retail Park Driver Left Site PCN
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:07 PM
    Yet Another Markham Retail Park Driver Left Site PCN 11th Oct 18 at 3:07 PM
    Hi,

    My mother-in-law has received one of the infamous 'Driver left site' PCNs for Marham Retail Park in Chesterfield. The front and back of the NTK is available here: https://imgur.com/a/s5tFIIV

    She has sadly already made her first appeal to the PPC and has identified herself as the driver before I got involved - her defense being she didn't actually leave site but stayed on site, using the rear entrance to the store. As expected this first appeal was declined.

    She now has the option of paying or appealing through POPLA.

    She hasn't got the appetite for a long fight, but I think it's worth appealing to POPLA as other threads related to car park suggest that Premier do not bother contesting POPLA for this site and the appeal from Raxiel here:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74371226&postcount=3079
    Seems pretty strong and doesn't rely on keeper liability. I'm guessing I could tell her I have a strong (>80%) chance of succeeding here which might convince her to take the risk at having to pay the higher (£100.00) invoice.

    I have, however, got her to send a subject access request to get a complete set of information and images that Premier Park might have in their possession.

    I think I know what I'm doing, but anything else people might suggest feel free to post. I'm going to edit Raxiel's POPLA submission to taylor it to this situation and will post her for comment should I convince her to appeal.

    Thanks

    Abe
Page 1
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Oct 18, 3:30 PM
    • 4,390 Posts
    • 6,236 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:30 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:30 PM
    are you aware of the toothbrush?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • DW190
    • By DW190 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 97 Thanks
    DW190
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    The payment part of the notice advises that all payments will attract a 0.50p administration fee.

    This increases the cost to more than the sum indicated in the ts&cs.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Oct 18, 4:06 PM
    • 11,004 Posts
    • 10,969 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:06 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:06 PM
    Watch the video, particularly that part where an MP thinks that leaving site prohibition may be a breach of The Human Rights Act.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.
    for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 11th Oct 18, 4:20 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:20 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:20 PM
    The payment part of the notice advises that all payments will attract a 0.50p administration fee.

    This increases the cost to more than the sum indicated in the ts&cs.
    Originally posted by DW190
    Very interesting point! A worthwhile addition to the POPLA appeal as a point of law maybe?
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 11th Oct 18, 5:46 PM
    • 5,510 Posts
    • 5,670 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 5:46 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 5:46 PM
    I've dealt with a few appeals at this location as it is very close to one of our offices, and the little Norris from Premier Park sits in a car waiting to take a picture. He doesn't even have the cojones to apply a windscreen ticket - literally 5 seconds out of his car to take a picture then runs back again.

    On each occasion I've said that I do not deny the vehicle was at the site, but I simply asked for proof that the driver left the site and therefore breached the terms.

    Premier Park have rejected each one, and the last POPLA appeal was about 4 lines long, and PP didn't even contest it. I've yet to have one POPLA appeal for this location for "leaving the site" to be contested.

    I suspect it is a numbers game for them - a fair few people/registered keepers will just pay up without question and there is no incentive for them to chase those that don't pay without a battle.

    Also let the MP know that you are yet another disgruntled "former" user of the retail park. Although he can't pull any strings, he is well aware of the situation and has been vocal about it in the past in the local press - toby.perkins.mp@parliament.uk
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 11th Oct 18, 5:50 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 5:50 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 5:50 PM
    I suspect it is a numbers game for them - a fair few people/registered keepers will just pay up without question and there is no incentive for them to chase those that don't pay without a battle.
    Originally posted by StaffsSW
    Thanks - I suspected it was a numbers game - case in point is my mother-in-law was getting ready to pay up until I intervened.

    I'll let Toby know - we've exchanged emails on a number of other matters already...
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 12th Oct 18, 2:09 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:09 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 18, 2:09 PM
    Draft appeal response posted below, utilising coupon-mad's template response for signage and site contract. I added a point related to the compulsory admin charge making the real payment £100.50.

    As the registered keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice issued against it. I would like to have the parking charge notice cancelled based on the following grounds:

    1) No site boundary defined.
    2) No evidence that the driver left 'the site'.
    3) No photo evidence of the vehicle in contravention of terms.
    4) No landowner authority
    5) Signage
    6) NTK seeks payment in excess of that advertised on signage

    1) No Site Boundary defined
    The notice to keeper states that the vehicle driver left the site resulting in the driver incurring a parking charge of £100.

    No explanation has been provided as to what constitutes leaving ‘the site’ and it has not been established whether the driver was on site all along. The only evidence provided are pictures of a car parked within a parking bay:

    Fig 1: Operator Photo

    Fig 2: Operator Photo

    Fig 3: Operator Photo

    If no such sign or evidence exists, then I contend that the driver could not have known where the car park site boundary began and ended and in the absence of proof, I deny that there was any contravention. As a result, there was no contract formed with the driver to pay a charge in 'exchange' for going off-site; there was no consideration, offer or acceptance and no site boundary defined.

    Fig 4: A map of the site, with store entrances identified with red arrows

    Fig 5: Image of the western entrance to SCS, entrance to car park behind.

    A driver entering the site from Hipper Street South must pass a prominently signed entrance on the western side of the SCS store on site. A driver parking on the southern side of the car park would not see any other entrances and could reasonably assume the western entrance is the one they are intended to use, and that Hipper Street South is not 'out of bounds'.
    It is not possible for a single operative to observe all four store entrances on site, and an operative based within the car park would lose sight of a driver or occupant intending to use the western SCS entrance and could not divine their intended destination.

    2) No evidence that the driver left 'the site.'
    The notice to keeper states that the vehicle driver left the site resulting in the driver incurring a parking charge of £100.

    No evidence has been provided from PPL showing the vehicle driver leaving the site and I require PPL to provide this. Such evidence should include photographs of the contravention and a site map and a picture of the signage that would have communicated to the driver the defined boundary of the site they are alleged to have left.

    The burden of proof shifts to PPL to prove otherwise and to explain why their attendant presumably:
    1. Watched a driver or occupant walk towards the edge of an undefined boundary.
    2. Did not attempt to stop/warn the driver nor even ascertain if a passenger had already been dropped at the door of the premises.
    3. Did not attempt to confirm if they intended to use the western entrance of SCS.

    The attendant also had a legal duty under contract law, to mitigate any loss. In VCS v Ibbotson, Case No 1SE09849 16.5.2012 District Judge McIlwaine stated:
    “you say he left the premises...where does the premises start and where does the premises finish?...there is a duty to mitigate the loss.”
    In this case now under POPLA appeal, I contend that PPL has neither demonstrated any evidence that there was a breach nor shown that their operative took any steps to mitigate any loss.

    3) No photo evidence of the vehicle in contravention of terms
    The BPA Code of Practice point 20.5a stipulates that: "When issuing a parking charge notice you may use photographs as evidence that a vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. The photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph. All photographs used for evidence should be clear and legible and must not be retouched or digitally altered."

    The parking charge notice in question contains three photographs of the vehicle (Fig 1, 2 & 3). They do clearly show the vehicle present in the car park; however, they do not present any evidence that the vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way as required in the BPA Code of practice.

    The EXIF headers (digital metadata) of these photos also suggest these photos have been taken using a consumer smartphone, specifically a Samsung Galaxy Xcover 3 G389F. The images taken on such a device do not record a date and time stamp physically within the image and instead record this information as digital metadata which is non-resilient to tampering and manipulation. The photos provided by PPL show date and time added to the top left of the image which can only have occurred by subsequent digital alteration and in breach of the BPA Code of Practice.

    4) No landowner Authority
    As PPL does not have proprietary interest in the land, then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.

    The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is vital evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

    It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).
    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA, but in this case, I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:
    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
    a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
    b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
    c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
    d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
    e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement

    I put PPL to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements.

    This is vital; I contend that the contract - if this operator produces one - does not reflect the signage and if only a basic agreement or 'witness statement' is produced, then this will fail to demonstrate compliance with 7.3 (in particular, point b and d, above).

    Some parking companies have provided "witness statements" instead of the relevant contract. There is no proof whatsoever that the alleged signatory has ever seen the relevant contract, or, indeed is even an employee of the landowner. Nor would a witness statement show whether there is a payment made from either party within the agreement/contract which would affect any 'loss' calculations. Nor would it show whether the contract includes the necessary authority, required by the BPA CoP, to specifically allow PPL to pursue these charges in their own name as creditor in the Courts, and to grant them the standing/assignment of title to make contracts with drivers.

    In POPLA case reference 1771073004, POPLA ruled that a witness statement was 'not valid evidence'. This witness statement concerned evidence which could have been produced but was not. So if the operator produces a witness statement mentioning the contract, but does not produce the actual un-redacted contract document, then POPLA should be consistent and rule any such statement invalid.

    This would destroy any attempt by this operator to argue there is a Beavis-case-style 'legitimate interest' backed by any commercial justification and wishes of the landowner to sue customers setting foot beyond the boundary of a car park.

    I require PPL to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated contract with the landowner showing evidence to meet 7.3 of the CoP. In order to comply, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner, not merely a 'standard business agreement'; with a non-landholder managing agent which is true of any such business model. This cannot impact upon, nor create a contract with, any driver, as was found in case no. 3JD00517 ParkingEye v Clarke 19th December 2013.

    5) Signage
    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself.

    I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver be given 'adequate notice' of the charge. POFA 2012 defines 'adequate notice' as follows:

    ''(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) 'adequate notice' means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land''.

    Even in circumstances where POFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own assessment, as appellant, of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and POFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site - given the minuscule font size of the £100, which is illegible in most photographs and does not appear at all at the entrance - is NOT sufficient to bring the parking charge (i.e. the sum itself) to the attention of the motorist.

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court was keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

    http://imgur.com/a/AkMCN

    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background, and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYdphoIIDgE/VpbCpfSTaiI/AAAAAAAAE10/5uFjL528DgU/s640/Parking%2Bsign_001.jpg

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately apparent as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition, the operator's signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    http://www-archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

    http://www.signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2' letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3' or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Outdoor-Dimensional-Sign-Letter-Best-Viewing-Distance-/10000000175068392/g.html

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.

    6) PPL seeks payment in excess of that made in contract offer
    On the received PCN PPL states that in excess of the £100 amount due to a note that "all payments are subject to a mandatory £0.50 administration fee". As this is a mandatory fee that applies to all payments and not just those using credit or debit card the total amount due is always in excess of that which is advertised on the signage. As a result of this discrepancy, no contract can be formed. This is also a breach of the BPA Code of Practice point 19.5 which states that “If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be proportionate and commercially justifiable. We
    would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If the charge is more than this, operators must be able to justify the amount in advance.”

    I respectfully request that this parking charge notice appeal be allowed and await your decision.
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 12th Oct 18, 10:36 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 10:36 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 18, 10:36 PM
    So PPL have already responded to the subject access request- by post and recorded delivery. The subject access request does confirm they have no photos or other evidence to back up their claim the driver left site.

    It also reveals some other information which warrants another thread and a complaint to the ICO such as keeping personal information for 2 years where there has a been no parking contravention.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 13th Oct 18, 9:11 AM
    • 3,455 Posts
    • 5,063 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    It also reveals some other information which warrants another thread and a complaint to the ICO such as keeping personal information for 2 years where there has a been no parking contravention.
    Originally posted by abedegno
    Now if everyone who has ever parked there in the last 2 years makes a SAR to them, and then questions why their data is being held for no reason, that could make life difficult for them. PPCs have no reason to keep details of cars which have stayed within the allowed parking period; they should surely be deleted immediately.
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 13th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    It appears that for this car park in question information its the parking attendant only hiding in his grey Clio - but certainly for other premier park sites where there is CCTV or ANPR this practice should be called into question.

    My complaint about Parking Eye to the ICO for retaining vehicle data for 12 months has just been allocated to a case officier.
    Last edited by abedegno; 28-10-2018 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Typo
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 13th Oct 18, 4:17 PM
    • 5,510 Posts
    • 5,670 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    Now if everyone who has ever parked there in the last 2 years makes a SAR to them, and then questions why their data is being held for no reason, that could make life difficult for them. PPCs have no reason to keep details of cars which have stayed within the allowed parking period; they should surely be deleted immediately.
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    If SARs could be requested by limited companies, I could tie them up for months with bureaucracy with the amount I've dealt with!
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 15th Oct 18, 2:44 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    I've had no comments on my Popla appeal, so I'm guessing it's okay.

    From what StaffsSW says it doesn't sound like I try to hard on appeal and PPL will likely fold.

    Will be submitting later today, so wish me luck!
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 15th Oct 18, 3:20 PM
    • 5,510 Posts
    • 5,670 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    I've had no comments on my Popla appeal, so I'm guessing it's okay.

    From what StaffsSW says it doesn't sound like I try to hard on appeal and PPL will likely fold.

    Will be submitting later today, so wish me luck!
    Originally posted by abedegno
    I leave commenting on the wordy POPLA appeals to those more familiar with them than myself. My circumstances are slightly different in that all of the vehicles I deal with are registered to Limited companies, and I don't often partake in POPLA appeals these days. If our attempts to transfer liability are rejected by the PPC, I simply reply with a couple of reasons why they are wrong, and invite them to discuss it in front of a judge. Very few take us up on that offer, and for the few that have I know I had the support of the directors to fight them.

    The POPLA appeals I have done for that site relate to staff vehicles where the drivers wants a bit more of a "belt and braces" method of making sure it doesn't come back on them. Requesting that the PPC provide strict proof that the driver left the site is an almost impossible task for them. If they can't prove the driver left the site, then there is no chance of them proving a breach.
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 19th Oct 18, 3:39 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    Popla appeal submitted.

    I added another appeal point, as following the SAR the information provided by PPL their own records showed an entry time of 12:25, an NTK contravention time of 12:32 and the photographic evidence of 12:33 - so within grace period time. Goes to show it's worth submitting a SAR as it can reveal potentially useful information to use in appeal.

    I guess I sit tight, and wait now for a response.
    • abedegno
    • By abedegno 8th Nov 18, 2:34 PM
    • 118 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    abedegno
    So looks like Premier Park timed out today on responding to my appeal and have decided not to contest it - just won my first Popla appeal, so excited :-)
    Last edited by abedegno; 08-11-2018 at 2:36 PM.
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 9th Nov 18, 11:46 AM
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    • 5,670 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    It's pleasing to hear that - if you are local, email a summary to Toby Perkins MP to let him know that nothing has changed, and his constituents are still being pestered and harassed by this shower of scutters
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
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