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  • FIRST POST
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 10th Oct 18, 7:43 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    I've searched, I've read and I'm still stuck
    • #1
    • 10th Oct 18, 7:43 PM
    I've searched, I've read and I'm still stuck 10th Oct 18 at 7:43 PM
    Please don't get mad, I have tried to help myself but I really am not sure what is relevant to me.

    On 23/11/17 I parked a courtesy car in Sutton Harbour car park, Plymouth. I paid, luckily by CC.
    Some time later I received a PCN from Britannia via the garage - the keeper.
    Now, I live in a fairly rural area of Wales, council run pay and display, free shopping centre car parks etc so I am in blissful ignorance of the mess I am about to get myself in to. So, I appeal the charge and after a bit of toing and froing it goes very quiet, I sigh with relief thinking reason has prevailed and in a mass clear out it is possible that the original paperwork was slung out.

    This year I return home after a few weeks away to a letter from BW legal dated 28/8/18 saying pay up by 2nd Oct. I finally think to contact my credit card issuer who give me the transaction details. I write to them (headed WITHOUT PREJUDICE) giving them this information and an email from PCC explaining why the payment shows on my statement as Plymouth County Council and confirming that the payment would have been sent to Britannia Parking. I did conclude that if they decided to go to court I would counter claim for my time, phone call, anxiety and stress. (got that last bit from MSE)

    I have today received a reply dated 4th October in which they say I did not enter the correct VRM and enclosing a print out I presume from their machine, plus photographs of all machines in the car park (I assume) showing that an 85 PCN may be issued to all vehicle which etc etc including wrong VRM. The 85 is fairly big, the reasons are small. Neither can be seen from the parking space and I can recollect no signs at the entrance to the car park.

    However, it looks like they are right. The prefix and numbers entered are for my own vehicle reg not the courtesy car's. However I have paid.

    I would like to reply and ask them for photo evidence that a car with my reg WF13, entered the car park at about the same time, and for them to do a quick reconciliation between cars in long enough to warrant a charge and parking paid. The car park was not busy. I can prove that my WF13 was nowhere near the car park.

    But, I have a sneak feeling someone is going to say this is not the best way to go about it.

    They do say in their letter that they are not the land owner of the site and manage it on behalf of the landowner - can I use that?

    It is an individual letter and concludes asking me to "Please contact our office within 14 days of the date of this letter on phone number to discuss repayment". At least they are being polite.

    BTW "Balance" is 145.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Page 1
    • onlyfoolsandparking
    • By onlyfoolsandparking 10th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    • 478 Posts
    • 633 Thanks
    onlyfoolsandparking
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    All seems a bit confusing, so are you saying you paid PCC by mistake and PCC confirm this but parking company aren't interested?


    And if that is correct well of course they wont be interested!! in their eyes you owe them money.


    And are you now saying you want to refute the parking scammers charge?


    Plenty of defence threads on here relating to incorrect/mistyped VRN,s just keep steadily searching and reading.


    A bit more clarity and detail will help us help you oh and people don't get mad on here, well not many
    The real meaning of life is the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of pain
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Oct 18, 8:20 PM
    • 9,704 Posts
    • 12,762 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 18, 8:20 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 18, 8:20 PM
    Yes, your post does not make sense

    Are you saying that Plymouth County Council are using
    scammers like Britannia ?????
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Oct 18, 10:15 PM
    • 20,696 Posts
    • 32,604 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:15 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:15 PM
    I write to them (headed WITHOUT PREJUDICE)
    Why did you head it 'Without Prejudice'?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 18, 3:57 PM
    Thank you everyone, and sorry my explanation was not clear. I'll start again.

    I parked a courtesy car in Harbour car park Plymouth in September 2017.

    A PCN was issued via the garage servicing my car. I had no idea I was opening a can of worms by appealing.

    However after a while all went quiet and I thought the matter was over.

    A year later I receive a letter of claim from bw legal. My credit card issuer give me the transaction number, authorisation code and Merchant details for the payment I made.

    The debit on my credit card statement was to Plymouth County Council. I contacted them and this is from their response "I have spoken with the Bank card company 3C who administer the payments on behalf of Britannia Parking, they have advised that they currently provide transactional services for a number of car parks in Plymouth, including some Plymouth City Council and some privately owned. The payment shows as a payment to Plymouth CC as the payment goes through the same Merchant ID, the destination of the payment is then determined and made to the correct car park owner. Therefore this payment would have been sent directly to Britannia parking and they will have a record of your transaction. I have written to the company asking that they change their Merchant ID to ensure that this confusion does not continue."

    The land is owned by Plymouth CC and managed by Britannia.

    Britannia's letter to me says "We are aware of the terminals named 'Plymouth City Council' - Britannia Parking are not the landowner of this site and manage it on behalf of the landowner."

    After a year Britannia advise me that I did not pay for the car I parked. I parked a courtesy car but automatically entered my own car's reg into the ticketless machine.

    I'm not sure how best to proceed. I would like them to prove that a car with my car's registration number used the car park at the time I made payment. They have only provided the prefix and first 2 numbers of all of the registration numbers.

    Like many others, I have paid for a parking space but Britannia's automatic system can't handle honest mistakes.

    Should I reply, go via POPLA or wait and see if they take me to court?

    Thanks again.

    PS I have look for as many posts as I can where people have put in the wrong reg but only 2 seemed remotely like my case but both used an app on their mobile to pay.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Oct 18, 4:01 PM
    • 3,784 Posts
    • 6,230 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:01 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:01 PM
    go via POPLA
    Have they sent you a POPLA code?
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    • 11,374 Posts
    • 11,907 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    A year later I receive a letter of claim from bw legal.
    You need to respond to the Letter of Claim.

    How you might do that is described in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    • 20,430 Posts
    • 25,781 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:02 PM
    it is far too late for any appeal and an appeal cannot be made to popla without Britannia providing a popla code

    I think you need to leave the council out of this and assume that BRIT manage the car park and BRIT have passed it to B W LEGAL

    you need to assume that this is an LBC and write and send an LBC rebuttal, by reading recent B W LEGAL rebuttals and adapting one
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Oct 18, 4:18 PM
    • 11,020 Posts
    • 10,986 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:18 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 4:18 PM
    Judges often regard wrong VRNs as trifling matters and the Law does not concern itself with trifles.

    Vhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis

    IMO, if they went to court they might struugle, technology is available to circumvent keyboard erroe, but scamming PPCs prefer not to use it.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.
    for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.


    kavble
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 11th Oct 18, 4:24 PM
    • 2,425 Posts
    • 2,958 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    if this land is owned by counsil , THEY should have issued a ticket , not the parking Co , the land is non applicable for POFa ,
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 18, 4:28 PM
    • 20,430 Posts
    • 25,781 Thanks
    Redx
    bear in mind that some councils have contracts where they lease the land out to a PPC

    Excel run the one at Chorlton C*m Hardy which has featured on here many times, but Tameside Council actually own the land (The Square , behind the Precinct)


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/they-need-stopped-driver-hits-13316843
    Last edited by Redx; 11-10-2018 at 5:03 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Oct 18, 4:57 PM
    • 3,784 Posts
    • 6,230 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    if this land is owned by counsil , THEY should have issued a ticket , not the parking Co , the land is non applicable for POFa ,
    I've had a run-in with PCC. The issue is not whether it is council owned but whether there was a PPO which was removed to allow a PPC.

    That is what is needed to be checked.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 11th Oct 18, 5:01 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    Oh dear,

    I've read the threads in the Newbies section and they just confuse me, so much legal jargon and scenarios which don't match mine interspersed with notes about how to go about it, but it just doesn't make sense. Which part do I send? None of them seem relevant and will it affect my case if I send the wrong thing, or is the aim just to bombard them with everything?

    I did reply to their letter of claim, their letter in response (from which I quoted re land ownership) has given me 14 days (from the date they wrote it) to respond by telephone.

    I have only now been issued with the clear information that It looks like I used the wrong car's registration.

    A realistic and fair company would look at their camera records and see that no car with my registration entered the car park. Obviously I can prove that my car was in the garage at the time and that I was driving a courtesy car.

    Has anyone ever taken a firm such as Britannia to court ie get in first?

    I will write to my MP

    Thanks again everone.
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 11th Oct 18, 5:02 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    Um, what is a PPO and PPC please
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 18, 5:06 PM
    • 20,430 Posts
    • 25,781 Thanks
    Redx
    you may well have used the incorrect VRM

    none of these companies are fair, it is shark infested waters which is why its been debated by MP,s in the House Of Parliament and a new law is being enacted

    your LBC is a legal letter of claim , nothing to do with parking , but to do with contract law (it just so happens that a parking incident has triggered it - hence all the legal jargon)

    just keep replying and denying any money is owed , by letter or email but do not phone them !!!

    this is a reactive system , so until they try court you are at their mercy , so the time to fight back is if they issue a court claim, not to start your own claim, especially when you dont know what you are doing


    ps:- some acronyms are in post #5 of that NEWBIES thread, please read them (PPC is definitely there)


    PPO was discussed 2 years ago on here


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71843136
    Last edited by Redx; 11-10-2018 at 5:11 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 11th Oct 18, 5:09 PM
    • 3,417 Posts
    • 2,377 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Um, what is a PPO and PPC please
    Originally posted by WelshPoppy
    Go here to find about all about acronyms.
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 13th Oct 18, 2:12 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    Many thanks again everyone, sorry I missed the glossary of acronyms.

    The report from the ticket machine only shows the prefix and first 2 digits of car reg numbers so this is what I was thinking of saying in my reply:

    I write in reference to the above matter and your recent correspondence

    The print out you have provided does not show the whole registration number, despite your client’s signage that the full and correct VRM should be entered. Please provide me with a report which shows the full VRM.


    As Britannia Parking are not the landowners of Sutton Harbour car park do I put in here the legal reply template from the NEWBIES section?

    Do I also include the template about ANR?

    When I have the full reg and can be 100% certain that it is my own car, I can then prove that it was in the garage and could not have been in the car park.

    I could also ask them to contact the card handling company with the information provided by my credit card issuer to cross reference the time of payment - but should I save that for later?

    I appreciate that I am dealing with contract law but because I go away for long periods and don't want to risk a judgement in my absence I will probably allow them to take me to court so I need to clearly show that it's a "trivial matter".

    I so appreciate the help on this forum, so many thanks again.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 18, 5:02 PM
    • 20,430 Posts
    • 25,781 Thanks
    Redx
    as this is at LBC stage, then the time for explanations etc is long past


    assuming you dont wish to pay it in full, then you should send a rebuttal denying the alleged debt (because BRIT were paid by phone or whatever was used , assuming it went to BRIT and not to PCC)


    keep rebutting it until or unless they issue an MCOL


    in the meantime , gather all your evidence, docs and pics for any future defence in court
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • WelshPoppy
    • By WelshPoppy 14th Oct 18, 6:42 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    WelshPoppy
    Thank you Redx.
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