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  • FIRST POST
    • haki
    • By haki 10th Oct 18, 5:15 PM
    • 30Posts
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    haki
    Ms
    • #1
    • 10th Oct 18, 5:15 PM
    Ms 10th Oct 18 at 5:15 PM
    I had a default CCJ issued against me. The reason for the default was, mainly on health grounds that did not enable me to attend the hearing, thus i was not able to defend the claim by Lowell, on behalf of 3G. I applied for CCJ to be set aside. At first it was refused. Second try, i was given a hearing date. Judge said, it could only be set aside on two grounds. 1st if medical, second, if i had a good chance of success. He said i had a good chance of success, but apparently letter from GP was insufficient as evidence! So now i need to appeal against the decision for refusal to set aside. There was no specific requirements that the judge asked in advance for the gp to write a letter. So the letter was firstly protecting me, secondly it was general. This is Lowell and Three G that went to court. Any advice, including which organisations out there can help me to appeal is highly appreciated, as i have no funds for solicitors. Winning this case, could be monumental because it would help hundreds of thousands of people who are being mistreated daily by mobile phone companies like 3G, who instead of resolving a matter, sell, your personal data to debt companies. PLEASE HELP URGENTLY
    Last edited by haki; 11-10-2018 at 11:35 AM. Reason: to be more specific
Page 2
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 11th Oct 18, 11:23 AM
    • 27,796 Posts
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    forgotmyname
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding ... I'm reading it as the OP got a default CCJ as they were unable to address the original claim due to medical grounds. It's not medical grounds as to why they don't owe the debt - the OP's claim is that the debt doesn't exist due to 3's breach of contract.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Most likely I misunderstood. Re-read it several times and its still confusing.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

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    • haki
    • By haki 11th Oct 18, 11:28 AM
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    haki
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding ... I'm reading it as the OP got a default CCJ as they were unable to address the original claim due to medical grounds. It's not medical grounds as to why they don't owe the debt - the OP's claim is that the debt doesn't exist due to 3's breach of contract.
    Originally posted by DoaM

    Yes you are right. You express it better than i did. You are spot on. Thank you.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 11th Oct 18, 12:36 PM
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    DoaM
    Most likely I misunderstood. Re-read it several times and its still confusing.
    Originally posted by forgotmyname
    To be fair to you ... you need to read the OP and then OP's posts after your post to reach the conclusion I did.
    Diary of a madman
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    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 11th Oct 18, 4:00 PM
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    powerful_Rogue
    Three G supplied a faulty phone - the phone and line rental were part of the same contract. They declined to replace the phone within the time they were required to. I declined the contract within the specified time period. After which i stopped payments. so they are claiming for a botched contract period of two years through Lowell solicitors who bought their debt - so bill is three's plus lowell's - so it comes to about that figure. Hope that helps.
    Originally posted by haki

    Going by what you have said, I hope you sought advice before you started all this. I honestly think you could struggle to win this one.
    • bris
    • By bris 11th Oct 18, 11:48 PM
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    bris
    One of the grounds for a set aside is a good case, you said the judge said you had a good case but still it wasn't set aside.


    They clearly believe the contract was not breached, did you prove it was?
    • haki
    • By haki 12th Oct 18, 12:14 AM
    • 30 Posts
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    haki
    One of the grounds for a set aside is a good case, you said the judge said you had a good case but still it wasn't set aside.


    They clearly believe the contract was not breached, did you prove it was?
    Originally posted by bris
    Yes - one must prove two grounds. The grounds of a good case i was able to prove and court did agree that it was breached in many ways.

    The second ground was where the GP's letter was not sufficient.

    BOTH must pass for a set aside to be granted. I passed one. Did not get an all clear on the second.

    So now, i need advice on how to appeal on the second part. It was my presumption that a GP's letter is sufficient. Only learnt that it was not at the hearing. So i believe the Judge erred on this specific issue, because there was no specific detailed report on what constituted medical evidence. So that is where i am at now. How do i go about this? Is there any precedence anyone knows about?

    What i mean is, if evidence is required, and the person provides reasonable evidence, as would have been provided by anyone in the society. Can that evidence be dismissed on grounds previously unknown?

    I strongly feel the court seeing that i had no legal presentation, should have been specific of what they meant by medical evidence. Just thoughts. I believe this is an error in law, but i am not a lawyer or have not dealt with this before, so seeking any advice on how to raise it to the court as an issue of appeal. And then request to provide what the court then stated is required.

    Basically if i get through the appeal, then i have a very high chance of winning the case, hence request for help.
    Last edited by haki; 12-10-2018 at 12:46 AM.
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 12th Oct 18, 5:22 AM
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    powerful_Rogue
    Yes - one must prove two grounds. The grounds of a good case i was able to prove and court did agree that it was breached in many ways.

    The second ground was where the GP's letter was not sufficient.

    BOTH must pass for a set aside to be granted. I passed one. Did not get an all clear on the second.

    So now, i need advice on how to appeal on the second part. It was my presumption that a GP's letter is sufficient. Only learnt that it was not at the hearing. So i believe the Judge erred on this specific issue, because there was no specific detailed report on what constituted medical evidence. So that is where i am at now. How do i go about this? Is there any precedence anyone knows about?

    What i mean is, if evidence is required, and the person provides reasonable evidence, as would have been provided by anyone in the society. Can that evidence be dismissed on grounds previously unknown?

    I strongly feel the court seeing that i had no legal presentation, should have been specific of what they meant by medical evidence. Just thoughts. I believe this is an error in law, but i am not a lawyer or have not dealt with this before, so seeking any advice on how to raise it to the court as an issue of appeal. And then request to provide what the court then stated is required.

    Basically if i get through the appeal, then i have a very high chance of winning the case, hence request for help.
    Originally posted by haki

    The majority of people believe that when they issue a claim at the Small Claims Court. Have you sought advice on your case as the sparse details you have posted so far makes it appear it's not going to be as easy as you think.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Oct 18, 9:09 AM
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    waamo
    I can only repeat my previous advice. You have stated the judge told you what evidence he wanted. You have not told us any more than that. Therefore provide what the judge has said he wanted.

    Any more than that and we are just guessing. We don't know what he said.

    Are you trying to ask, in a roundabout way, what the appeal process is and how to initiate an appeal?

    If not then I'm not sure what your asking.
    Last edited by waamo; 12-10-2018 at 9:17 AM.
    This space for hire.
    • TW1234
    • By TW1234 12th Oct 18, 12:10 PM
    • 142 Posts
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    TW1234
    My reading is that you lost a claim based on default caused by your not defending at all because of a medical condition.
    Is that correct, or did you defend it, but, in your opinion not adequately, because of a medical condition that prevented your acting in the best manner possible.?

    You say that you lost, by default, so a CCJ was entered against you. Did you then enter an appeal against the judgement (which could be a costly process) or did you apply for a "set-aside" which requires a fee of 250 and for you to demonstrate that there was a good reason that you did not defend the original claim l, AND demonstrate that if the set-aside were to be permitted, then you would have some reasonable (not certain) prospect of being able to defend the matter.(When it was retried, from scratch)

    I read your information as saying that you have applied for a set aside and that a judge has accepted the latter requirement but has said that the first requirement has not been satisfied just by the production of the doctor's letter.

    Could you elaborate, please?
    Last edited by TW1234; 12-10-2018 at 12:13 PM. Reason: clarity
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 12th Oct 18, 12:46 PM
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    DoaM
    My reading is that you lost a claim based on default caused by your not defending at all because of a medical condition.
    Is that correct,
    Originally posted by TW1234
    See posts #20 and #22
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • TW1234
    • By TW1234 12th Oct 18, 1:38 PM
    • 142 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    TW1234
    See posts #20 and #22
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Yes, but was the original claim "ignored" or was a defence entered, albeit a poor one, or unsupported by a presence at court hearing.
    It reads as though the judge has made some sort of ruling based on a set aside application.
    • TW1234
    • By TW1234 12th Oct 18, 1:55 PM
    • 142 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    TW1234
    BOTH must pass for a set aside to be granted. I passed one. Did not get an all clear on the second.

    So now, i need advice on how to appeal on the second part. It was my presumption that a GP's letter is sufficient. Only learnt that it was not at the hearing. So i believe the Judge erred on this specific issue, because there was no specific detailed report on what constituted medical evidence.

    It is not the responsibility of the judge to tell you what would provide good evidence to support your submission.

    Are you now seeking to appeal against a completed set aside refusal and then have a new application hearing? This could become costly as you are the party that has caused the additional costs.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 12th Oct 18, 2:56 PM
    • 4,607 Posts
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    robatwork
    When you've come back from court you will come back and update this thread, won't you?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Oct 18, 3:32 PM
    • 4,479 Posts
    • 5,865 Thanks
    waamo
    . It is not the responsibility of the judge to tell you what would provide good evidence to support your submission.
    I agree, however the op maintains the judge did say what he wanted. The op has not divulged what they were told and on the surface appears to be asking what evidence to provide. Information the judge apparently gave them.

    That's how I'm reading it anyway. Unless I'm reading it wrong?
    This space for hire.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 12th Oct 18, 4:28 PM
    • 5,043 Posts
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    DoaM
    Yes, but was the original claim "ignored" or was a defence entered, albeit a poor one, or unsupported by a presence at court hearing.
    Originally posted by TW1234
    IMHO posts #20 and #22 are clear ... the original claim was ignored/overlooked/put on the back-burner because of the OP's medical condition - no defence was entered, indeed no acknowledgement of the claim was made, hence the default judgment. OP confirms this in post #22.

    As to the rest of the OP's situation ... that's a different story and one the OP needs to clarify before anyone can offer any proper help.
    Last edited by DoaM; 12-10-2018 at 4:31 PM.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • haki
    • By haki 13th Oct 18, 12:38 AM
    • 30 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    haki
    BOTH must pass for a set aside to be granted. I passed one. Did not get an all clear on the second.

    So now, i need advice on how to appeal on the second part. It was my presumption that a GP's letter is sufficient. Only learnt that it was not at the hearing. So i believe the Judge erred on this specific issue, because there was no specific detailed report on what constituted medical evidence.

    It is not the responsibility of the judge to tell you what would provide good evidence to support your submission.

    Are you now seeking to appeal against a completed set aside refusal and then have a new application hearing? This could become costly as you are the party that has caused the additional costs.
    Originally posted by TW1234

    Many thanks!

    That is what i am seeking, as that is what the court has said needs to be done.

    To make an appeal and see if a different judge may think differently. If i get the appeal accepted, it means Court removes the CCJ and relists the case to the original hearing, whereby i would be able to present my evidence. At that point, the court said i have a high likely-hood of success.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 13th Oct 18, 1:24 AM
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    forgotmyname
    When you applied for the set aside did they have the evidence provided by the other side though?
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • haki
    • By haki 13th Oct 18, 1:37 AM
    • 30 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    haki
    I agree, however the op maintains the judge did say what he wanted. The op has not divulged what they were told and on the surface appears to be asking what evidence to provide. Information the judge apparently gave them.

    That's how I'm reading it anyway. Unless I'm reading it wrong?
    Originally posted by waamo
    Many thanks.

    I hope i will be clearer this time.

    I was asked to provide 'health evidence' for the set aside hearing.
    To meet this requirement, i took a GP's letter.
    At the set aside hearing, the Judge said the GP's letter was not sufficient.
    Based on this, the Judge said it did not meet the 1st standard.
    The Court said, the letter had to specifically state a diagnosis of which it did not. The Judge however acknowledged the letter, BUT said it was NOT sufficient.

    It is at this point that i got lost and i am still not clear. What i mean is, if i am asked to provide health evidence, as i had been, that was NOT specific, i was not asked to provide a diagnosis.
    Therefore i took a GP's letter.

    To make an appeal, one does not make one, simply because i think the judge 'got it wrong' - I 'can only appeal if i have proper legal grounds - for example, if u can show that the decision was wrong because of a serious mistake or because the procedure was not followed properly'.

    I have a very strong feeling that in my case, the procedure was not followed properly. This is because, from what i have read on various issues, unless there is a publicly known system of what constitutes a particular evidence,the court has leeway on discretion to accept the evidence that is entered in court provided it is what a reasonable person/public would understand as a standard. The public understand, within public policy, e.g employers, schools, colleges, etc - that a GP's letter is generally evidence of medical/health. The general public would not know that GP MUST indicate certain specifics of their health condition in a letter.

    That is my view.

    The help i seek is, does anyone know any precedence of such? Or any link or any information that can help me put this argument in the appeal? From the little i have read, it does not have to be specifically medical, it may be a precedence where evidence has been declined for not meeting the Court's presumed standard that has not been made clear to the defendant.

    The reason i am following this up is for three reasons.

    1) The Court has clearly said, i have a very good chance of success if the appeal is granted.

    2) 3G breached their own contract, i followed their own laid out procedures of coming out of the contract, but they later sold the 'debt' to Lowell. So this does impact on public policy and consumer rights. For example, if you buy a product e.g a kettle. You have a warranty. It specifies the time limit,, what qualifies, etc. If product/kettle fails, the company repairs it or replaces it, provided it is within the contract terms.

    If you inform the company that the product is not functional, and you provide evidence to them, based on their own advice and they do not action their own terms, they should pay you back your money, repair or replace the item - that is the law as it stands. The company can not refuse to fix the product, or replace it, then go ahead and demand that you pay for it, (assuming you were paying in installments) or refuse to reimburse you, if you have paid for it upfront.
    Worse still, they can not then proceed with impunity, to sell your data to a third party private company, in this case, lowell and BW legal, who believes that the consumer is automatically the one on the wrong. Then the third party, takes you to court. I believe if this allowed to go on, basically companies would go on to abuse the public the way they wish because they will assume they have the power to.
    In my case, the line rental and phone was both within the same contract. So i followed their own procedures to pull out of the contract of which they had already botched. I have provided the evidence to the court.

    Thirdly, the other crucial reason i am seeking for help/advice on how to get lawful grounds of appeal is that, when i am well and able to return to my work, i would struggle to get a contract for work, with a CCJ due to the nature of work that i do. Hence, i have to fight this out to ensure that i have done everything i can for the CCJ to be overturned. The only way forward is to make the appeal, seeing that there is an option for it as a means of seeking remedy and then take it from there on. I am also encouraged that the Court thinks that i have a very strong case.

    And yes, someone stated that, i only need to supply what the Judge asked for, to explain this, the judge asked for this specific information DURING the hearing, not before. Otherwise i would have provided the specifics required.

    I have read on the Justice.gov website, that an appeal can only be based on the error/mistake/lack of procedure - on the evidence that WAS before the Judge on the day, not what i can provide now.

    It would have been easier, for instance, if Judge would have, on discretionary grounds, allowed me extra time to provide what the court specifically required, of which i only knew during the hearing. I requested for time to provide the additional information that judge wanted, but Judge said that a decision had to be made on the day. I wonder if there is precedence within the law that allows this as an option? If there is, this could be one of the areas to note in the appeal.

    I hope this helps to clarify. And yes, i have requested for the additional information the court needs, but this can not be reviewed at the appeal. It can only be reviewed at a hearing of the original case, if i get the appeal granted. !
    • haki
    • By haki 13th Oct 18, 1:44 AM
    • 30 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    haki
    When you've come back from court you will come back and update this thread, won't you?
    Originally posted by robatwork
    For CERTAIN I SHALL. I have become more keenly aware that this case is not specific to myself. Apparently, Citizens advice mentioned to me that hundreds of thousands of people are arm twisted to pay for mobile phone contracts that are not functional, which is not their fault at all, due to current legislation which is highly imbalanced against the consumer.

    Therefore yes, i shall give feedback on the outcome so that i can help many others who find themselves in this predicament or who, have ended up succumbing to the pressure of debt collection companies, even when the fault is on the side of the mobile companies.
    To start with, as a result, that was the last contract i ever took! Please note this case is emerging from a botched contract that did not work four years ago! I have read that companies can go to court up to 7 years! Personally it is my strong clear stand that no one should be abused by a company, when the company is at fault, simply because they think they have 'power and resources' to do so. Doing so means impunity of the powerful against the public.
    • haki
    • By haki 13th Oct 18, 1:48 AM
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    • 2 Thanks
    haki
    When you applied for the set aside did they have the evidence provided by the other side though?
    Originally posted by forgotmyname
    Yes, the Judge looked at evidence from both sides. BW legal and Lowell, are a debt buying company. They are a third party. They simply buy debt mainly from large companies. So all they had is the contract and letter from 3 G showing what i purportedly owe them. Apart from that, they do not have anything else.
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