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  • FIRST POST
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 9th Oct 18, 10:12 AM
    • 341Posts
    • 141Thanks
    fifitrix123
    Any experts on 1st tier tribunal please?
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 18, 10:12 AM
    Any experts on 1st tier tribunal please? 9th Oct 18 at 10:12 AM
    I have been to a tribunal as I received a inheritance but could not physically cash the cheque due to being illnand in hospital etc. They tell me I had the capital by having the cheque, despite me trying to contact dwp several times about it (and have proof). I was also told by bank chequebwas out ofnfate at 3 months, (wrong info) but bank wrote to them explaining, consultants and docs wrote to them but still i should have trusted a stranger with my cheque (bank told me not to or I would be liable if it was lost or stolen)!
    1st judge asked for lots more info at 1st hearing and adjourned it for 10 months! 2nd Judge didn't even bother looking at it?
    Any experts or solicitors know if I can do anything else?
    Welfare rights and voiceability wrote 1 letter with nothing new in it and that took them over a year?
    Any advice from an expert will be greatly appreciated thank you!!!
Page 1
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 9th Oct 18, 10:40 AM
    • 11,900 Posts
    • 13,757 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 18, 10:40 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 18, 10:40 AM
    I am sorry but |I am finding it difficult to understand all this.

    Can you start from the beginning of your story?

    Since you mention the DWP I am assuming this is to do with a means tested benefit? if so, which one? JSA/ESA?

    Did they stop your benefit because they said you were over the limit with your savings from an inheritance? But this inheritance was in the form of a cheque which you had not cashed due to being ill?

    And you have appealed this?

    Sorry, if I am way off the mark!
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 9th Oct 18, 7:26 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,814 Thanks
    tomtom256
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 18, 7:26 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 18, 7:26 PM
    Basically I think you are being treated as having the capital available, regardless of ability to cash it, as you could have paid the cheque in at any time.


    What are you actually arguing against?


    Did the tribunal find in your favour or uphold the decision?


    Do you believe there has been an error in the law used?
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 9th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    • 2,436 Posts
    • 2,832 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 18, 8:04 PM
    What does the Lawyer you got through your insurance policy say?

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5819032

    I agree with tomtom that a cheque would be classed as available capital by the DWP.
    What grounds did your lawyer come up with to argue otherwise? Did s/he quote legislation / case law to support your contention.

    What does the Tribunal Decision Notice say?
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 10th Oct 18, 10:39 AM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:39 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:39 AM
    Hi insurance couldnt help at all as I had already started case.

    Thanks
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 10th Oct 18, 10:46 AM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:46 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:46 AM
    Yes it has been treated as capital despite not cashing cheque, then it went out of date. I was in hospita or while then coukd not get out as dont have family or carers so could not cash it as bank told me not to give it to anyone incase it went missing ie a cheque cashing place as I had carers steal cash out of bank previously.....

    1st judge asked for a ton more evidence and proof of me contacting dwp about it, then 10months later I got a different judge who didnt even look at it.

    I guess I just have to suck it up but they could have told me ithadto be cashed way before they came to see me, then maybe the bank manager could have sorted something but not top of my mind when awaiting life saving surgery lol. Thanks everyone for your input. It was esa so I have to pay back 8 months of when i had the chque, not the cash.... had I cashed it I woukd have told them, as they agree I wasnt bejng fraudulent but I had the cheque, tho even tho the bank told me it was out of date after 3 months I thought I had lost it all anyway.
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 10th Oct 18, 10:50 AM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:50 AM
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 18, 10:50 AM
    Hi I dont think I can appeal this, I hope I explain better in other post, I think now I can only appeal a point in law, ie if judge did something wrong...... im so mad as had I cashed cheque straight away and paid off debts immediately I would not have had so much stopped as I was borrowing money all the time whilst ill, and had to carpet and furnish a new place and pay for own carers etc so it went below 16k straight away! Insteak I have to repay 10 months money whilst ill and unable to cash it so borrowed more until I coukd cash it then am paying it back twice!
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Oct 18, 12:29 PM
    • 3,592 Posts
    • 3,449 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 18, 12:29 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 18, 12:29 PM
    What i don't understand is, if the cheque wasn't cashed why you haven't contacted the person you had it from so they can send you another cheque? If you haven't cashed it in then the money is still there for you.



    This doesn't make any sense to me or i'm just not thinking straight today...
    • JCS1
    • By JCS1 10th Oct 18, 12:49 PM
    • 3,670 Posts
    • 7,490 Thanks
    JCS1
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 18, 12:49 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 18, 12:49 PM
    Why not ask whoever issued the cheque to cancel and do a bank transfer instead?
    • sammyjammy
    • By sammyjammy 10th Oct 18, 12:59 PM
    • 4,404 Posts
    • 4,761 Thanks
    sammyjammy
    You were in hospital for 8 months. I can post a cheque to my bank in a special envelope, you could have made arrangements for this.
    "You've been reading SOS when it's just your clock reading 5:05 "
    • sammyjammy
    • By sammyjammy 10th Oct 18, 1:01 PM
    • 4,404 Posts
    • 4,761 Thanks
    sammyjammy
    I'm not sure what the issue is, if you had cashed the cheque immediately your benefit would have stopped immediately, it didn't and you were overpaid and need to pay it back. The cashing of the cheque is regardless IMO.

    Unless I am really confused...
    "You've been reading SOS when it's just your clock reading 5:05 "
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 10th Oct 18, 7:21 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,814 Thanks
    tomtom256
    I'm not sure what the issue is, if you had cashed the cheque immediately your benefit would have stopped immediately, it didn't and you were overpaid and need to pay it back. The cashing of the cheque is regardless IMO.

    Unless I am really confused...
    Originally posted by sammyjammy

    No I don't think you are confused.


    My understanding is that OP was in hospital long term and couldn't get anywhere to cash the cheque and was that ill, that the last thing on their mind was anything to do with the cheque or their benefits and was only concentrating on getting themselves better.


    Then the cheque/capital issue hit them once on the mend and then appeal etc to where we are today.


    Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but when ill one does not always think logically.
    • Tomsdottir
    • By Tomsdottir 11th Oct 18, 4:07 PM
    • 34 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    Tomsdottir
    I'm guessing that the tribunal was about an overpayment of benefit on the basis that you "failed to disclose", or "misrepresented" a material fact (that fact being that you had capital -the cheque). Either the amount of the cheque + any existing capital you had such as savings came to more than 16,000, in which case you weren't entitled to benefit, or it came to less than that, but more than 6,000, in which case it is deemed to generate income which in turn affects the amount of benefit you qualify for.

    So the key issue in the appeal might have been about whether you failed to disclose or misrepresented a material fact (that is, the DWP argued that you didn't tell them ) rather than about whether the cheque was capital. Although someone might have tried to argue both, I think it would be tough to show that it wasn't capital. So it would probably come down to failure to disclose, and this is why you were asked to prove that you have told the DWP about the money.

    So unless there was an error of law at the tribunal, you are right in being pessimistic about a further appeal (though you could take the decision notice/statement of reasons to a CAB or similar for their take on this) that doesn't mean things are hopeless. The DWP has a discretion about recovering overpayments. You can ask them to use their discretion not to recover all or part of the overpayment. Bear in mind that they are routinely asked to write off overpayments and are not very strongly influenced by arguments about hardship and ill health in general terms. However, you have made out a very good case for a write off as you didn't benefit from the cheque and as you say, ended up worse off. If you can get the help of a CAB or other welfare right organisation, and put together a detailed record of hospital admission and discharge dates to show your timeline of what happened and when, the DWP may agree not to recover. Worth a try.
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 12th Oct 18, 10:43 AM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    Thank you, you are very right and we did provide a list of emergency admissions but again I was told I should have taken it to a cheque cashingmplace by DWP!!! Had I done that it would have been fraud?
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 12th Oct 18, 10:49 AM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    Hi and thank you for this Tommsdottir
    No benefits were stopped as I didnt do anything wrong in their eyes and they have said that all along but just say it was capital available which clearly I didnt have thousands available to me just a cheque I could not cash!
    Could you please tellme who to write to about the repayment and asking them to not take as much please, whilst I get it needs to be paid back, I did say they could have contacted me much sooner ebpven if I was in hospital again! My mobile was always with me though again you were right whikst being told you can die without emergency surgery, popping to a bank was not foremost on my mind lol!
    I am grateful for the help as once again am housebound unable to get to CAB or anywhere and welfare rights lost funding etc. I wish I could contact you directly lol!
    Thanks again I do appreciate the help.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 12th Oct 18, 11:42 AM
    • 3,592 Posts
    • 3,449 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Could you please tellme who to write to about the repayment and asking them to not take as much please,
    Originally posted by fifitrix123
    You need to contact which ever benefit it concerns, as you haven't stated what benefit. If it's housing benefit then local council, or DWP if it's ESA etc. Best way to contact either of them is to ring them.
    • neontetra
    • By neontetra 12th Oct 18, 1:19 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    neontetra
    If you were so ill in hospital and couldn't cash a check then i'm sure you couldn't spend any benefit money paid to you so just pay it back.
    • calcotti
    • By calcotti 12th Oct 18, 5:48 PM
    • 627 Posts
    • 406 Thanks
    calcotti
    If you were so ill in hospital and couldn't cash a check then i'm sure you couldn't spend any benefit money paid to you so just pay it back.
    Originally posted by neontetra
    They would still have had to pay rent, Council Tax, utility bills etc.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 12th Oct 18, 6:37 PM
    • 16,999 Posts
    • 41,891 Thanks
    FBaby
    Why are you disputing the overpayment if indeed if you physically could, you would have cashed the cheque and not got the money you now have to repay? It makes no difference. I could understand if they were issuing a penalty but it doesn't seem to be the case so fighting it in the first place weakens your statement that you would have cashed it if you were able to.
    • fifitrix123
    • By fifitrix123 13th Oct 18, 1:01 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    fifitrix123
    They did issue a penalty too.
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