Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 8th Oct 18, 11:01 AM
    • 11Posts
    • 6Thanks
    owlsman
    County Court Claim - BW Legal.. Help!!!
    • #1
    • 8th Oct 18, 11:01 AM
    County Court Claim - BW Legal.. Help!!! 8th Oct 18 at 11:01 AM
    Hi Folks.

    Just looking for a little advice before I finish of my defense.

    So a county court claim was issued against me for failing to display a valid permit in a Premier Parking controlled street. The street is where my children's school is and there is an agreement that people can park and drop/collect their children off in the mornings and after school. On the day the PCN was issued the driver it would appear failed to display the permit (its a bit of paper from the school) its also possible it may have dropped down when closing the door? Either way no permit was showing and Premier Parking have photos to show this.

    I initially emailed them asking them to cancel along with a photo of my permit. They ignored this and I didn't hear anything from the for a long time.

    I received a few further letters from them with demands for money but I ignored these (yes I am aware now i shouldn't have, but this is where we are).

    I do not recall receiving a letter before action. Just the court papers.

    I emailed them asking for all information they have and they have provided pictures and the first couple of letters.

    So a couple of questions..
    Does the initial PCN letter have to be sent within so many days of receiving the ticket? Or is the ticket the notification?
    Can i fight this as ticket fell off display?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    I would also add that Premier Parking use to prey on the school users turning up at school drop off times.

    Thanks.
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 11th Oct 18, 2:37 PM
    • 4,158 Posts
    • 5,007 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Issue date forthcoming at any point?
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 11th Oct 18, 2:40 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    owlsman
    Issue date forthcoming at any point?
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    14th September so I have until Wednesday 17th October? That would be the 33 days.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Oct 18, 2:50 PM
    • 3,784 Posts
    • 6,229 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Re: Mill Hill.

    PCM operate a similar scheme on a private road deep within a new residential estate. The signs as usual for PCM are too high and the writing too small. You are best getting pics of the signs, and their location to demonstrate the visibility issue. Also some of their wording is pants.

    Check with the school whose road it is and who hired PCM. They may be able to help
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Oct 18, 3:34 PM
    • 11,336 Posts
    • 11,870 Thanks
    KeithP
    14th September so I have until Wednesday 17th October? That would be the 33 days.
    Originally posted by owlsman
    Yes, you are right.

    With a Claim Issue Date of 14th September, and having done the AoS in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 17th October 2018 to file your Defence.

    Still nearly a week left, but best not to leave it to the last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:

    1) Print your Defence.
    2) Sign it and date it.
    3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7) Wait for your Directions Questionnaire and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 13th Oct 18, 2:22 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    owlsman
    Hi folks.. think this got lost first time posted. Anyway here is my first draft of defense. Critique and guidance appreciated.

    Thanks...

    Statement of Defence

    I am xxx, defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:

    I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons:

    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident.
    2. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained.
    a. The Claimant did not identify the driver
    b. The Defendant has no liability, as they are the Keeper of the vehicle and the Claimant must rely upon the strict provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driver’s alleged breach.
    3. The original Parking Charge Letter was posted to me on 03/12/2015 and an appeal via email was lodged on 06/01/2016. The appeal was based on the fact that I do indeed have a valid permit to park in the area to allow the drop off of children to the local school. The school issues these permits. Unfortunately on the day it would appear that the permit had been dislodged from the windscreen area of my car. Despite appealing no appeal decision was received from Premier Parking Solutions and no offer was made to take it to an independent appeals company.
    4. The claimant has not provided enough details in the particulars of claim to file a full defence.
    In particular, the full details of the contract which it is alleged was broken have not been provided.
    a. The Claimant has disclosed no cause of action to give rise to any debt.
    b. The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred.
    c. The Claimant has given no indication of the nature of the alleged charge in the Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has therefore disclosed no cause of action.
    d. The Particulars of Claim contains no details and fails to establish a cause of action which would enable the Defendant to prepare a specific defence. It just states “parking charges” which does not give any indication of on what basis the claim is brought. There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Particulars of Claim are incompetent in disclosing no cause of action.
    e. Another relevant poorly pleaded private parking charge claim by Gladstones was struck out by District Judge Cross of Northampton County Court without a hearing due to their ‘roboclaim’ particulars being incoherent, failing to comply with CPR. 16.4 and ‘providing no facts that could give rise to any apparent claim in law’
    f. On the 19th August 2016 DJ Anson sitting at Preston County Court ruled that the very similar parking charge particulars of claim were deficient and failing to meet CPR 16.4 and PD 16 paragraphs 7.3 - 7.5. He ordered the Claimant in that case to file new particulars which they failed to do, and the court confirmed the claim will now be struck out.!

    5. I was not in receipt of a compliant “Letter Before Court Claim”, under the Practice Direction, meaning the Defendant could not compile a Formal Response. This is in direct contradiction with paragraph 7 of the particulars where the Claimant’s solicitor states ‘The Claimant has complied with the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims’ and the Defendant believes that this is a deliberate attempt to mislead the court. The Defendant invites the Claimant to provide proof of their compliance.

    6. Premier Parking Solutions are not the lawful occupier of the land. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no rights to bring this case.
    a) The Claimant is not the landowner and is merely an agent acting on behalf of the landowner and has failed to demonstrate their legal standing to form a contract.
    b) The claimant is not the landowner and suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a vehicle parking at the location in question
    c) The Claimant is put to proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no right to bring action regarding this claim.
    7. The signage was inadequate to form a contract with the motorist
    a. The signage on this site is inadequate to form a contract. It is barely legible, making it difficult to read. The car park signage font is below the required sizing. Industry standard signs recommend a minimum height of 3 inches in a bold font to have any readable impact at 30 feet.
    (g)In the absence of ‘adequate notice’ of the terms and the charge (which must be in large prominent letters such as the brief, clear and multiple signs in the Beavis case) this fails to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of the POFA
    c. The sign does not contain an obligation as to how to ‘validly display’ the permit in the windscreen, therefore there was no breach of any ‘relevant obligation’ or ‘relevant contract’ as required under Schedule 4 of POFA.
    d. In the absence of ‘adequate notice’ of the terms and the charge (which must be in large prominent letters such as the brief, clear and multiple signs in the Beavis case) this fails to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of the POFA.

    8(a) The Claimant has at no time provided an explanation how the sum has been calculated, the conduct that gave rise to it or how the amount has climbed from £100 as per the PCN issued on 22/10/2015. This appears to be an added cost with no apparent qualification and an attempt at double recovery, which the POFA Schedule 4 specifically disallows.
    b) The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.

    9(a)No figure for additional charges was 'agreed' nor could it have formed part of the alleged 'contract' because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the signs.
    b) The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 legal representative costs and £25 court fees.
    c) The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £60 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt.
    d) Notwithstanding the Defendant's belief, the costs are in any case not recoverable.
    e) The Claimant described the charge of £110 "legal representative costs’’ not "contractual costs".
    CPR 27.14 does not permit these to be recovered in the Small Claims Court.
    10. The driver did not enter into any 'agreement on the charge', no consideration flowed between the parties and no contract was established.
    a. The Defendant denies that the driver would have agreed to pay the original demand of £100 to agree to the alleged contract had the terms and conditions of the contract been properly displayed and accessible.

    I believe the facts stated in this defence are true.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 13th Oct 18, 3:03 PM
    • 3,411 Posts
    • 2,370 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Defences need to be written in the Third Person; you have mixed First and Third.
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 15th Oct 18, 7:17 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    owlsman
    Ok thanks.. will get rid of the first person. Aside from that, anything else?
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 18th Nov 18, 9:13 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    owlsman
    An update.

    I entered my defence and BW Legal have decided to discontinue. Thank you to everyone who helped.

    I have a couple of questions though.

    As they have discontinued with this can I now claim costs? If in doing so can they re-raise this case? Or should i just count my chickens so to speak and leave it all behind me?

    Thanks.
    • owlsman
    • By owlsman 19th Nov 18, 6:12 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    owlsman
    Can anyone offer advice on my above post? Thanks in advance.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 19th Nov 18, 6:14 PM
    • 2,496 Posts
    • 7,154 Thanks
    bargepole
    Can anyone offer advice on my above post? Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by owlsman
    If there was no hearing, you can't claim any costs.

    It's over.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 35, lost 10), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and am a Graduate member of CILEx, studying towards a Fellowship (equivalent to solicitor) in Civil Litigation. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Nov 18, 6:14 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,471 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Wooohoo, firstly, WELL DONE! It's over.

    Another one bites the dust!

    As for costs, unless this was already allocated to your local court and you were close to a hearing, I don't see a way you can claim them.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,789Posts Today

6,863Users online

Martin's Twitter