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  • FIRST POST
    • koby83
    • By koby83 4th Oct 18, 7:55 PM
    • 41Posts
    • 7Thanks
    koby83
    claim form from CEL he;p needed on how to play it
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 18, 7:55 PM
    claim form from CEL he;p needed on how to play it 4th Oct 18 at 7:55 PM
    Can anyone please help with how i play this.
    I got a fine from CEL for overstaying by approx half an hour on one of there car parks
    They have ANPR and sent me pictures of my car entering and leaving.
    Now this is a car park which is free for 3 hours. It appears that the driver most of overstayed, I do however have gym membership for a gym thats customers are allowed to use this car park. Initially the gym was the only business on the car park, then other units popped up so we were given a sticker for our car which meant that we could stay as long as we want. Then things changed and more units came so they made the car park free for all for 3 hours.
    My point is, my car was alleged to of overstayed but as the car park is free they have no loss in earning so therefor their demand for 350 is very steep. Also with me having a gym membership i am contributing to the site anyway.
    I have had a claim form and aim to fight this in court and will be acknowledging so
    p.s. i have had lots of letters, debt collector and solicitor letters but i ignored them all.
    Last edited by koby83; 12-10-2018 at 10:41 PM.
Page 3
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Oct 18, 11:00 PM
    • 20,280 Posts
    • 25,675 Thanks
    Redx
    edit the post and change this top line



    yes i will email a pdf that is what i meant. So here is my KEEPER defence i think....
    there was no "fine" so never use that legal word, it does not apply here

    its a pcn , a private Parking Charge Notice , OR another word is INVOICE


    you fell into your trap of using the banned words again


    , THE DRIVER may have spent time looking for a space/queuing to get off the car park so the anpr has only recorded the vehicle coming and going it is not an indicator of the length of time parked!!
    you need to be more careful in your choice of words , as if retelling the story told to you by somebody else


    no "MY , ME , MYSELF & I"

    some spelling errors too, like POFA2012 in 4) , you added an extra number
    Last edited by Redx; 12-10-2018 at 11:06 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • koby83
    • By koby83 12th Oct 18, 11:20 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    done!
    would you include time looking for a space arguement or is that complicating the issue?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Oct 18, 11:25 PM
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    • 25,675 Thanks
    Redx
    you can add someting about GRACE PERIODS and study the relevant CoP to see what is said about them, stating that you believe the driver had problems looking for a space etc, or maybe something you can expand on in the witness statement later

    BUT, a judge is more likely to give weight to driver testimony, rather than a keeper, hence why some defences are better put by the driver

    but for POFA2012, its a defence by the KEEPER, who may know some details about what happened on the day to the driver

    its a quandary isnt it ? but bear in mind that a WS comes later in this process, a few weeks before any court case, so it can be expanded upon then, as long as grace periods are mentioned now
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • koby83
    • By koby83 12th Oct 18, 11:29 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    yes and im really unsure on which to use
    maybe i should just leave it as is and then it wont complicate matters as it did take 29 days for them to issue the pcn so therefore i have a definitive arguement
    • koby83
    • By koby83 12th Oct 18, 11:31 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    also the signs at the carpark are really shody and faded. should i include a picture of this in the pdf or do i save that for if and when i go to court?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Oct 18, 11:35 PM
    • 20,280 Posts
    • 25,675 Thanks
    Redx
    evidence and WS are a few weeks before the court date, not now

    have you read the walkthrough by member BARGEPOLE ? , posted on here 2 years ago and still valid now ?

    POFA2012 compliance is a powerful argument as you rightly say, so if they failed it then the keeper is in theory not regarded as liable

    if they decide to throw the towel in it may not even get as far as sending in the WS and signage pics
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • koby83
    • By koby83 12th Oct 18, 11:44 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    well the alleged pcn was for the 1/8/16 the issue date was 30/8/16 so it seems that they failed but when pointed out in a response to them they said "there is no legal requirement to send out the pcn within 14days of the incident day as there is no referencr to POFA on this ticket, your interpretation of the Act is incorrect"
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Oct 18, 11:49 PM
    • 20,280 Posts
    • 25,675 Thanks
    Redx
    they are right , if they were telling this to the driver

    but as they are telling this to the KEEPER, then the KEEPER has no liability and is under no obligation to name the driver

    so they can go swivel so stick to the KEEPER defence , lol

    POFA2012 is not mandatory, but if they fail to adhere to POFA then they cannot expect to beat a keeper appeal or keeper defence


    basically you are saying , "look , I am the keeper and am not legally responsible for your invoice , so F R O !!" LOL
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • koby83
    • By koby83 12th Oct 18, 11:50 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    ahhh get it now, they dont make this easy!!!
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 7:55 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    I am sending this off tomorrow to the email that you suggested.
    does this look/sound ok i am hoping to defend as keeper. Have i worded it ok?(missed the top bit off with the claim no and cel v me as it has all my details on)
    also do i just send it via email or should i send a registered post copy also?
    many many thanks

    the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle ....

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The Claim Form issued on 01/10/2018 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited” (Claimant’s Legal Representative).

    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.
    a) There was no compliant “Letter before County Court Claim” under the Practice Direction.
    b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.
    c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.
    d) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.


    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold a registered keeper defendant liable under the strict keeper liability provisions.
    4. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.
    Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 21012 states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and ‘relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK mentioned a possible 276.76 for outstanding debt and damages. It also states that charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss. This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken.
    Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.
    5. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that 60 “legal representative’s (or even admin) costs” were incurred. I deny the Claimant is entitled to any interest whatsoever.
    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the driver then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.
    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver
    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (ii) It is believed the signage and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (iii) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    (iv) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
    The terms on the Claimant's signage are displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. They are also so faded they are barely readable. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.
    Civil Enforcement Ltd breaches -:
    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, readability, lighting or positioning.
    (ii) the sum pursued exceeds 100.
    (iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    8. This Claimant files serial claims regarding sites where they have lost the contract, known as revenge claims and it believed this is one such case. This is not a legitimate reason to pursue a charge out of proportion with any loss or damages the true landowner could pursue.
    The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge, unless specifically authorised by the principal. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name, and that they have no right to bring any action regarding this claim.
    On contacting the landowner the defendant was informed that the landowner was trying to terminate their current parking control contract with Civil Enforcement Ltd due to numerous problems with complaints from customers regarding unfair and unjust fines. Thus said the defendant is a long standing customer of the site in question as they hold a gym membership for a business on this site. The defendant is not aware if Civil Enforcement Ltd still hold a parking control contract for this site or ever had one as no proof of the matter has been provided despited being challenged to provide one.

    9. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification.
    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 1st October 2018.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.
    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Oct 18, 8:12 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    do i just send it via email or should i send a registered post copy also
    Email only, to the CCBC AQ email address posted by KeithP.

    Put URGENT DEFENCE - CLAIM XXXXXXX in the subject line and attach a SIGNED & DATED copy.

    Thing is, do not rush - you should work on this more over the weekend.

    I say you have copied an old template. It doesn't even tell the Judge what the situation was/what the fact are, and what your defence is, and it does not reply to the allegations in the particulars.

    Someone using that (or a very similar) CEL defence this Summer had their defence struck out - without even getting a hearing date, initially - by a Judge who could not see a defence in there...he had to work very hard to get the case back on, pointing out the POFA/no keeper liability issue that a Judge didn't see.

    8. This Claimant files serial claims regarding sites where they have lost the contract, known as revenge claims and it believed this is one such case.
    Really? Or have you just copied an old template defence?

    I have been off forum and without looking back to the start of your thread (no time) I have no idea what your defence is about. I don't know the location, the contravention alleged, or what may have happened or why you are not liable. So a Judge won't, either.

    Have a look at the concise defence examples written by bargepole, in the NEWBIES thread 2nd post.

    Why not use one of those and insert the facts & admit/deny the allegations in the Particulars of Claim?
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:20 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    i have looked threw all of the defences in the newbies thread and these are the only ones i feel apply to me.
    I was parked on a free car park for 3 hours which is attached to my gym. I must of overstayed the allotted time as they sent me a pcn with pictures of my car coming and going with the time. i did not admit to driving the car but asked for proof from cel that they had a contract with the landowner but they refused to supply one. I also contacted them to say i wont pay as you did not send the pcn to the keeper within 14 days and they replyied that they did not need to i had misinterpreted the act.
    I am now panicking as i thought this defence would be ok and i have worked on it for weeks adding and deleting bits. i am now at a loss of how to make it better and only have a couple of days left to submit
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:29 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    claim form just says for breach of terms and conditions
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 26th Oct 18, 8:29 PM
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    • 11,768 Thanks
    KeithP
    ...only have a couple of days left to submit
    Originally posted by koby83
    Really??

    In post #11 I wrote:
    ...you have until 4pm on Monday 5th November 2018 to file your Defence.
    That's over a week away.


    And just to remind you, here is the rest of that post #11:
    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as described here:

    1) Print your Defence.
    2) Sign it and date it.
    3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7) Wait for your Directions Questionnaire and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:41 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    i have added the following paragraph
    does it help?
    The facts are that the vehicle, registration xxxx, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked for a period of time on the date stated by Civil Inforcement Ltd. It is not possible to say what length of time the vehicle was parked for as the ANPR camera only took a picture of the defendants number plate on entering and leaving the site. There has been no consideration of time spend looking for a space, queuing to leave the site or any grace period taken into account.
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:46 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    i know i have a week but i cant print it and sign it until i go to work on monday so probably cant send it till Tuesday or Wednesday so i dont want to leave it until the last minute. i have wriiten down the instructions already about sending it to the email address etc but on reading bargpoles post about how to do it correctly it suggests sending a copy via recorded post so that threw me a bit that is why i am panicking a bit as i wont have time to send a posted copy if i leave it until in the week.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Oct 18, 8:50 PM
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    • 77,455 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I told you exactly which defence to use as your base and who wrote the template and where to find it.

    DO NOT stick with the one that was thrown out by a Judge with no hearing!
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:54 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    im a bit confused i thought i used that
    can you remind me again, i thought i had...
    • koby83
    • By koby83 26th Oct 18, 8:58 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    koby83
    ive looked back i cant see a suggested template to follow
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 26th Oct 18, 8:58 PM
    • 11,203 Posts
    • 11,768 Thanks
    KeithP
    i know i have a week but i cant print it and sign it until i go to work on monday so probably cant send it till Tuesday or Wednesday so i dont want to leave it until the last minute. i have wriiten down the instructions already about sending it to the email address etc but on reading bargpoles post about how to do it correctly it suggests sending a copy via recorded post so that threw me a bit that is why i am panicking a bit as i wont have time to send a posted copy if i leave it until in the week.
    Originally posted by koby83
    Please remember that Bargepole's guidance on that point was written two years ago - perhaps at a time when email wasn't fully embraced by the courts service. (Some might say it hardly is now ).

    In fact, sending the Defence by email is mentioned on the Bargepole thread you have already seen - see post #7 on that thread.
    Last edited by KeithP; 26-10-2018 at 9:01 PM.
    .
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