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  • FIRST POST
    • sensai
    • By sensai 3rd Oct 18, 11:52 AM
    • 18Posts
    • 13Thanks
    sensai
    VCS Letter Before Claim, Flora St.
    • #1
    • 3rd Oct 18, 11:52 AM
    VCS Letter Before Claim, Flora St. 3rd Oct 18 at 11:52 AM
    May 2018. Driver entered Flora St (Sheffield) retail park, all spaces full, so stopped in a large, open unmarked space on premises (not in any “roadway” or causing obstruction) in order to read signs (which are 7-8ft high on poles). Driver walked through to far end of car park to check any other signs/notices/empty spaces, then driver returned to car and found MyparkingCharge ticket on windscreen, then left the site.

    1. 6 days later I (registered keeper) received NTK (parked in a restricted/prohibited area). Their evidence shows 6 photos of the car over a time span of 3min 8 secs.

    2. Several demands followed (I didn’t appeal, IPC) then got LBC from VCS in-house litigation dept. dated 6 Sept.

    3. I acknowledged (by email) within 14 days along with a request for further essential information.

    4. Received VCS’s response yesterday (2 Sept).

    Defence point (none mentioned as yet) will be: “No Contract Entered Into” as 3 minutes is a reasonable grace period to leave car, study signs/enquire/leave site. No grace period posted on signs.

    Can you please suggest any further points to add to the formal response which has to be sent this week?

    So far the systems not allowing me to upload any images of the documents/signs using the 'insert image' icon.
Page 2
    • sensai
    • By sensai 8th Apr 19, 12:47 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    Sent chiffchaff PMs

    My court date is in June and their Directions specify that I send to the Claimant copies of all the documents I will rely on, Do I have to send these (list below) in full, or just reference the titles of some of them, ie, PoFa 2012, IPC grace periods?

    1. NTK, windscreen ticket
    2. PoFA 2012
    3. IPC, BPA grace periods
    4. Witness statement
    5. Exhibits (photos)
    6. Kelvin Reynolds
    Also will take along the Law Gazette copy of solicitor's agents and the McShane judgement.
    I have noticed that on the Claim Form N1SDT, the Claimant's signature box just has a typed name in it, is this ok?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Apr 19, 1:54 PM
    • 17,886 Posts
    • 21,792 Thanks
    KeithP
    You need to send 'copies of all the documents I will rely on'.
    Seems quite clear to me.

    However, do not print all the 228 pages of POFA2012. The eleven pages of Schedule 4 is enough.
    .
    • sensai
    • By sensai 21st May 19, 4:30 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    The claimant must pay the £25 court fee before a certain date; can you please tell me if this will be clearly flagged up (whether it is paid or not) on my MCOL Status Summary?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 21st May 19, 4:42 PM
    • 17,886 Posts
    • 21,792 Thanks
    KeithP
    The claimant must pay the £25 court fee before a certain date; can you please tell me if this will be clearly flagged up (whether it is paid or not) on my MCOL Status Summary?
    Originally posted by sensai
    No it will not be flagged on MCOL.

    MCOL plays no part in the process once a case hase been transferred to your local court.

    Phone, email or visit your local court for the answer to that sort of question.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd May 19, 10:48 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You have to assume they WILL pay it, because they will. They are after your money.

    Did you get those photos? Can you show us?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sensai
    • By sensai 2nd Jun 19, 1:24 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    Apologies Coupon-mad, I haven't been checking the thread as often as I should due to the quiet period prior to sending my WS in. I'll post up the photos shortly, I presume it's the ones about the aforementioned poor markings.

    In my Notice of Allocation from the court it says in bold type if the £25 fee hasn't been paid by a certain date, the claim will be struck out. That date is now past. I contacted the court 2 days before the fee deadline and it hadn't been paid. I am ringing on Monday for an update.

    On my first query to the court, I was advised rather vaguely about the striking out of the claim, although I have read somewhere on MSE that the court staff might not have a full grasp of the rules.


    UPDATE: Court tells me that fee has been paid, so back to finalising WS and photos.
    Last edited by sensai; 04-06-2019 at 9:25 PM. Reason: Update
    • sensai
    • By sensai 2nd Jun 19, 6:11 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai




    First image taken on 11 feb, and second image taken on 23 feb. I can't confirm who did it. Seems to have faded away of late.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jun 19, 11:57 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Weird. Never seen anything so crappy! Drawn on with yellow chalk by hand?!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sensai
    • By sensai 6th Jun 19, 8:52 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    Must have been chalk as it's now been washed away!
    • sensai
    • By sensai 13th Jun 19, 7:27 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    The court hearing is only a few days away. My WSs have been sent, the one I have received from VCS contains many paragaphs of waffle by their para-legal. However he/she has disputed all the PoFA assertions in my Defence Statement. This statement is slightly altered from the one posted earlier only for the reason of clarity and the addition of the advised amendments, but it is substantially the same.

    1. He refers to the ticket as a "windscreen warning card", and claims it is not a CN although my Particulars of Claim notice states clearly that they have issued a Charge Notice (CN).
    2. One para refers to Vine v Waltham Forest (2002) which is about trespass.
    3. He has submitted a copy of the contract.
    4.He emphasises that it was not a NTD attached, so Para 9 applies.


    As mentioned he has challenged all the PoFA paragraphs, I could upload a scan of the relevant section if required. Note that some para numbering on my final (Defence) version will be different; I could also post a scan of that (if desired) to avoid confusion.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 7:31 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Search the forum for the winning case the other week, where a poster convinced a doubting Judge into finding in the end, that VCS can't say a document that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, isn't a duck.

    Refer to that case in your own WS and quote what the Judge said in the end.

    Sorry I can't recall the username this time, you'll have to search VCS Judge or a similar couple of punchy keywords.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sensai
    • By sensai 17th Jun 19, 10:44 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    As they have admitted their windscreen ticket is not a NTD, they are trying to justify using the ANPR process on a non-ANPR park?

    I read somewhere that a brief summaryof points is useful at the hearing?
    Last edited by sensai; 17-06-2019 at 10:48 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jun 19, 11:22 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As they have admitted their windscreen ticket is not a NTD, they are trying to justify using the ANPR process on a non-ANPR park?
    Yes, which they are (sort of) allowed to do but your weapons against that would be the IPC CoP which I think sets out just two routes (ANPR or not) and the claim number & details of the case I told you about.

    You need to read that winning thread I told you about as it isn't that simple to explain to a Judge. I have no time to do searches that posters can and need to do themselves to find threads, and it's better practice for newer posters to see how good the search function is when you change the ADVANCED search to 'SHOW RESULTS AS POSTS'.

    Edit: When reading another post I found this, with the link & the wording you need:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6003359
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 17-06-2019 at 11:32 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sensai
    • By sensai 24th Jun 19, 4:34 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    Coupon-mad- "Yes, which they are (sort of) allowed to do but your weapons against that would be the IPC CoP which I think sets out just two routes (ANPR or not) and the claim number & details of the case I told you about."

    Ok, I've nailed that.

    The Claimant claims he is the principal in the contract , not the agent for the landowners. How is this?
    • Snakes Belly
    • By Snakes Belly 24th Jun 19, 10:23 PM
    • 805 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    Snakes Belly
    Richie won in Sheffield against VCS. Keep Calm and Carry on won against Excel in a very similar scenario.

    The Vine case is about contract but I don't get why they cite the case because Miss Vine won on appeal. She did not see the signs. VCS and Excel take a few words from this case and cite them but they are not in context.

    Nolite te bast--des carborundorum.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Jun 19, 10:58 PM
    • 76,496 Posts
    • 89,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The Claimant claims he is the principal in the contract , not the agent for the landowners. How is this?
    Originally posted by sensai
    Because they are the principal in the contract offered by their sign.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sensai
    • By sensai 28th Jun 19, 4:52 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    I'm pleased to say I won the case, although not quite in the way I expected, but soley on the signs.


    I'll post up more details in due course.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Jun 19, 4:55 PM
    • 25,008 Posts
    • 31,940 Thanks
    Redx
    well done , signage always plays a crucial role in forming the contract (or not) , very few signs are up to the Beavis standard


    another one bites the dust
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • sensai
    • By sensai 1st Jul 19, 8:29 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sensai
    There were 3 VCS cases that afternoon and I was the last; I think the judge had made up her mind already before we went in. She was impatient and a bit sharp at times, possibly because time was short and it had been a long day!

    She set the scene by emphasizing that she just wanted the “facts”. My arguments on the windscreen ticket, CoP and VCS contract weren’t accepted, in fact she said it was just a warning note and PoFA para. 9 applied - rather surprising as one of the opening statements in VCS’s 80 paragraph W.S. said “It is the role of the Patrol Officers to issue a PCN to any vehicles identified in breach of the Terms and Conditions”, which to me says they must affix a NTD to the vehicle? I was at this stage checking I’d brought my wallet.

    She then moved on to the signs/ground markings and turned her focus on VCS’s rep.
    My argument on the ambiguous signage and absence of suitable ground markings were accepted. I find for the Defendant.

    Job done, wallet returned to pocket.

    As an aside, VCSs rep was some kind of travelling freelance operator who represents several parking companies, accident claims etc. He was quite a nice chap, I had a long chat with him during the hour and a half waiting time. He said it would cost VCS around £300 altogether if they lost.

    Called to do some shopping at Flora St on the day after and noticed that a pole sign had been removed. I’ll check again next time I’m in.

    Thank you for all your prompt and valuable assistance.
    • Jussy1603
    • By Jussy1603 4th Jul 19, 11:36 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Jussy1603
    Stick to the not parked in a restricted zone argument. I've literally just walked put of court having won due to this exact point.
    Due to the area being next to a hatched zone but not actually marked as such was what won it.
    Make sure you state everything you'd like to discuss on the day in your statement as they won't take any further evidence on the day.
    Also signage is hung at 2300mm instead of the advised between 900mm-1500mm.
    I'm happy to send you pictures of many other users parked in the same place that I've been collecting for months.
    Good luck
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