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  • FIRST POST
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 27th Sep 18, 3:05 PM
    • 33Posts
    • 6Thanks
    SMF1
    Paypal Disputes
    • #1
    • 27th Sep 18, 3:05 PM
    Paypal Disputes 27th Sep 18 at 3:05 PM
    Hi All,

    Please bear with me with this as it's a long one.

    TL;dr: Money was taken out using my paypal account and it was not me who made the transactions. Paypal have conducted an investigation and are saying that at the time the transaction was made, it was made using my device. (They can tell this through either the IP or the devices ID).

    On the 17th September, there was two transactions made to two different addresses using my paypal account. They were for considerably large sums of cash. I did not make these transactions.

    One of the transactions was sent back to my paypal account, the largest one was not.

    I contacted paypal about these transactions and informed them that it wasn't me who made these transactions, nor was it anyone in my household using my devices. They concluded that at the time the transactions were made it was using my device, they said they can tell this due to the unique addresses given off by these devices ans say that that is has regularly been using the paypal account since 2016. My paypal account was opened in 2013.

    As far as I am concerned I know for sure it wasn't me who made the transactions and I obviously have some sort of virus issue but PayPal are not willing to refund this large sum of money to me, I have appealed their decision every day since and I'm getting no where.

    In the mean time,I removed the the first transaction which had been refunded by the receipient back to my paypal and withdrew it to my bank account and I have removed my bank card/details from my paypal to stop any more money leaving the account.

    It's causing me huge stress which is affecting my health and I'm so infuriated and lost. I don't know who to turn to next. The bank have refused to get involved and said it's a dispute between me and paypal due to paypals findings in their investigation.

    What do I do please?
Page 2
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 28th Sep 18, 3:56 PM
    • 901 Posts
    • 605 Thanks
    18cc
    Yes that is a good point which I hadn't thought of presumably when the transfers were made you would have got an email from PayPal confirming the transaction did that happen?
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 29th Sep 18, 11:47 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    It won't just be your IP address - those are easily spoofed as anyone using a VPN will tell you. Your PC, MAC or most other phones or devices have a unique signature which is generated from the hardware in use.

    If someone was using your Paypal account from another location or device, Paypal would know. A hacker isn't going to connect to Paypal via your device in real time (as you would have to be online for them to do so and you would see the emails notifying you of the transfer).

    Who else has access to your PC/MAC?
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    The 'hacker' had set up a filter in my gmail account so that any email with the word paypal was immediately sent to the trash and I was never notified of it. This was a question I raised with paypal myself when I asked why I hadn't received the emails of the receipts of payment. They asked me to check my trash folder and as I knew I never moved them there I done some further digging and there had been the filter set up that I mentioned above. Very sneaky indeed... if I hadn't checked my account and noticed the money was gone I may not have known today that I was missing money. I was at work the day and time the funds went missing and can obviously have this confirmed.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 29th Sep 18, 12:15 PM
    • 901 Posts
    • 605 Thanks
    18cc
    From what it seems you are saying the hacker or whoever not only has access to your PayPal account but also has access to your Gmail account?
    • julicorn
    • By julicorn 29th Sep 18, 12:55 PM
    • 460 Posts
    • 1,702 Thanks
    julicorn
    First of all, really sorry to hear, I'm sure it must be a very stressful situation to be in.

    2 questions come to mind:
    1) Who else has access to your computer?
    2) Can you see where the payment went?
    Original mortgage: December 2017, 203,495
    MFW start: April 2018, 201,800
    Current: 183,900
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 29th Sep 18, 1:28 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    First of all, really sorry to hear, I'm sure it must be a very stressful situation to be in.

    2 questions come to mind:
    1) Who else has access to your computer?
    2) Can you see where the payment went?
    Originally posted by julicorn

    It's been highly stressful, coming a few days after losing a loved one too.

    Nobody else has access to my computer as such. I live with my Mother who wouldn't know how to work it and my partner who has her own laptop and separate accounts. I have checked and double checked with them that they did not make the payment and it's not a 'surprise' gift for anything they don't want me to know about. They know how serious it is now anyway.

    The first payment which was returned to my account, coincidentally the smaller amount was sent to an email that I can see on my paypal account. It's not an email I recognise nor have sent money to it before. The reason it was returned to me (paypal say) is because it is not a valid paypal account and therefor cannot receive funds. I can also see the other email the largest amount of funds were sent to. I have google searched both, the one where the money was returned links to nothing, and the second one with the largest amount of money returns searches relating to African people/their faiths and beliefs.

    I have sent an email to it in the off chance, explaining what has happened and asking them to confirm who they are, if they received it and what it was for but obviously haven't had a reply.. and didn't expect one either.
    • Jlawson118
    • By Jlawson118 30th Sep 18, 12:56 PM
    • 1,005 Posts
    • 147 Thanks
    Jlawson118
    PayPal did the exact same to me in 2015, luckily as the payment had been taken out as a Direct Debit, my bank stopped that, putting my PayPal account in negative figures, -70. They refused to acknowledge the transaction was not myself and pursued the debt constantly, before passing it onto a debt collection agency. Luckily I'd contacted the police and reported it to the Fraud Prevention team, I sent this letter to the debt collection agency and they backed off.

    My advice would be to contact your bank again to try and issue a Chargeback for the sum. If this was a Credit Card, you've got more chance of this being successful, from a bank account, I'm not sure but it's worth trying to contact them some more and see if they can issue a Chargeback. First Direct were also reluctant to help me at first in 2015 until I put in a complaint, they then refunded me the money (Over 1000!) and told me PayPal had 60 days to prove the transactions were myself, and if they did they'd take the money off me again.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 30th Sep 18, 5:42 PM
    • 506 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    OceanSound
    Hi All,
    ... Money was taken out using my paypal account and it was not me who made the transactions. ....
    ..... They were for considerably large sums of cash. I did not make these transactions.

    One of the transactions was sent back to my paypal account, the largest one was not.
    Originally posted by SMF1
    Didn't the withdrawals go through paypal review? (seems the smaller one did and the larger one didn't?). Recently, I tried to withdraw 500 pounds from my paypal account to bank account, but was getting the 'please use classic site instead' error/warning. Classic site couldn't do it either.
    So after calling paypal customer support they did something at their end and asked me to try it again. This time it said 'withdrawal will be held back for up to 72 hours'. Money was in my bank account after 2 days. strange that your larger sum had gone through instantly. If anything that one should have been reviewed.
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 30th Sep 18, 7:23 PM
    • 1,682 Posts
    • 1,437 Thanks
    Shakin Steve
    I take it you haven't set up two factor authentication? I can't even log in to my PayPal account without inputting the code they send to my mobile.
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 30th Sep 18, 8:11 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    No I haven't set up two factory authentication.

    To be honest, Paypal was something I set up and left some years ago. I only used it to buy stuff on eBay and pay friends for some little jobs they done for me.

    The smaller transaction bounced and came back to me because according to paypal there is no such email as the one 'they' tried to send the cash to. The larger sum was sent to a valid email and that's why that one hasn't came back to me. They said to me they didn't question the large transaction (even though I have never made a transaction of that amount before in over 5 years of having the account) because apparently the address was the same as is always logged into from.

    I really feel like they are not willing to even entertain me because it looks like I'm at it and I'm just trying to get money back for something I've received. I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with them at all.

    I have appealed it again for a fourth time, and this time the lady I spoke to said she put on the notes that she believes there is something else at play here ie a virus, and a couple of other bits of information.

    I have also contacted the FSA for advice too.

    I've set up the two factory authentication now but I'm hoping it won't be needed as I mentioned before I removed all my bank details from the account so theoretically no more money should be able to disappear unless they somehow have my online bank details too.

    Another strange thing is that when I call paypal and they ask for the phone number on record for the account, I enter my mobile number and it says there is no associated account with that number. When I'm logged in to the account I can see that this is not the case and the number is correct.

    As long as viruses are going around and slipping past anti virus and malware software and they are able to log in using our own address spoofing then our money is not safe with paypal as a company.
    Last edited by SMF1; 30-09-2018 at 8:19 PM.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 1st Oct 18, 5:56 AM
    • 506 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    OceanSound
    ...They said to me they didn't question the large transaction (even though I have never made a transaction of that amount before in over 5 years of having the account) because apparently the address was the same as is always logged into from.
    Originally posted by SMF1
    Make a subject access request to paypal. Ask for the record of all the ip addresses and the 'device ID's' that have logged in to your paypal account.(Perhaps forum members here can suggest what additional info to ask for)

    Paypal should process and provide you the info within 30 days.
    I have also contacted the FSA for advice too.
    Don't count on much advice from these guys. It's the usual 'we cannot advice in order to maintain our impartiality' diatribe. They may point you in the direction of the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS), but that's it.
    I really feel like they are not willing to even entertain me because it looks like I'm at it and I'm just trying to get money back for something I've received. I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with them at all.
    I have appealed it again for a fourth time, and this time the lady I spoke to said she put on the notes that she believes there is something else at play here ie a virus, and a couple of other bits of information.
    Did the lady say paypal will investigate it further?, if not, best to ask for a final response letter. I think Paypal has 8 weeks to issue you one. After that you can take the complaint to the FOS. Must warn you, decisions against Paypal are thin on the ground. Just have look at: http://www.ombudsman-complaints-data.org.uk/
    But don't be put off by this. Some cases are decided against Paypal. If FOS dosen't find in your favour, then you can take it to Court. I remember a law student took paypal to Court and won. All depends on how much money, time, effort you are willing to put in + legal knowledge about Court procedures etc (if you self-represent yourself). Or you could hire a lawyer (if funding one is not an issue).
    Also, you can look in to hiring a lawyer through no-win-no-fee basis:
    https://www.first4lawyers.com/no-win-no-fee-solicitors/
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 1st Oct 18, 2:44 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    Make a subject access request to paypal. Ask for the record of all the ip addresses and the 'device ID's' that have logged in to your paypal account.(Perhaps forum members here can suggest what additional info to ask for)

    Paypal should process and provide you the info within 30 days.

    Don't count on much advice from these guys. It's the usual 'we cannot advice in order to maintain our impartiality' diatribe. They may point you in the direction of the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS), but that's it.

    Did the lady say paypal will investigate it further?, if not, best to ask for a final response letter. I think Paypal has 8 weeks to issue you one. After that you can take the complaint to the FOS. Must warn you, decisions against Paypal are thin on the ground. Just have look at: http://www.ombudsman-complaints-data.org.uk/
    But don't be put off by this. Some cases are decided against Paypal. If FOS dosen't find in your favour, then you can take it to Court. I remember a law student took paypal to Court and won. All depends on how much money, time, effort you are willing to put in + legal knowledge about Court procedures etc (if you self-represent yourself). Or you could hire a lawyer (if funding one is not an issue).
    Also, you can look in to hiring a lawyer through no-win-no-fee basis:
    https://www.first4lawyers.com/no-win-no-fee-solicitors/
    Originally posted by OceanSound
    Yes they said they were going to reinvestigate it. To be perfectly honest, I'm still missing around 800 (by the time conversion rate works out). I've never had to take anything to court before, and have never appeared in court myself for anything. I have absolutely no idea how it works and for 800 I have a funny feeling there would be no point in chasing it through the courts as fees would quickly mount up. I'm willing to put in all the effort and time in the world but I can't afford to throw money at it to get it back, I understand that the fees would be repaid to me for court but if in the event I don't get it back then I'm even more out of pocket than I am now.

    Still feeling like I have nowhere to turn just now and feel like they are not in the least bit fussed about it either.
    • OceanSound
    • By OceanSound 1st Oct 18, 3:02 PM
    • 506 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    OceanSound
    ..I've never had to take anything to court before, and have never appeared in court myself for anything. I have absolutely no idea how it works and for 800 I have a funny feeling there would be no point in chasing it through the courts as fees would quickly mount up. I'm willing to put in all the effort and time in the world but I can't afford to throw money at it to get it back, I understand that the fees would be repaid to me for court but if in the event I don't get it back then I'm even more out of pocket than I am now.
    Originally posted by SMF1
    Not many of us have taken anything to Court, nor are we from legal backgrounds.

    BTW, I believe you are thinking of a fully fledged court. For smaller disputes like this there is a small claims Court. I think it cost less than 100 pounds to file an action. Even that you can reclaim if you win. Did you explore the no-win-no-fee road? (the link I posted)
    Still feeling like I have nowhere to turn just now and feel like they are not in the least bit fussed about it either.
    You said the paypal lady entered some new bits of info and have promised to re-investigate. Hopefullt that will shed some light.
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 1st Oct 18, 8:13 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    Ah, I wasn't sure if it would be able to go through a small claims court because it's a large company.

    Paypal haven't come back to me yet so hopefully they are reconsidering. If I've not heard from them for tomorrow I'll call them again. That was Saturday I spoke to them last.

    Also, when I spoke to them I asked for them to tell me the IP address that the payments were made with. They refused. I questioned them and they said they could not give me it. I said as far as I'm concerned you're telling me it was me the payments were made by, I know my IP address of my PC and I want to confirm for myself if it's the same IP.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 1st Oct 18, 8:42 PM
    • 33,138 Posts
    • 20,866 Thanks
    DCFC79
    Ah, I wasn't sure if it would be able to go through a small claims court because it's a large company.

    Paypal haven't come back to me yet so hopefully they are reconsidering. If I've not heard from them for tomorrow I'll call them again. That was Saturday I spoke to them last.

    Also, when I spoke to them I asked for them to tell me the IP address that the payments were made with. They refused. I questioned them and they said they could not give me it. I said as far as I'm concerned you're telling me it was me the payments were made by, I know my IP address of my PC and I want to confirm for myself if it's the same IP.
    Originally posted by SMF1



    Send a subject access request as advised earlier.
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 1st Oct 18, 9:18 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    Is there anything I need to request from them specifically, and is a subject access request just a freedom of information request? I've read they can charge a 10 admin fee for providing it but I refuse to give them another penny.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 1st Oct 18, 9:21 PM
    • 33,138 Posts
    • 20,866 Thanks
    DCFC79
    Is there anything I need to request from them specifically, and is a subject access request just a freedom of information request? I've read they can charge a 10 admin fee for providing it but I refuse to give them another penny.
    Originally posted by SMF1
    It was suggested in an earlier what to ask for.

    As for the fee I dont know, as far as I know a foi request is free but look into it.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 2nd Oct 18, 1:04 AM
    • 8,769 Posts
    • 10,034 Thanks
    eskbanker
    Is there anything I need to request from them specifically, and is a subject access request just a freedom of information request? I've read they can charge a 10 admin fee for providing it but I refuse to give them another penny.
    Originally posted by SMF1
    It was suggested in an earlier what to ask for.

    As for the fee I dont know, as far as I know a foi request is free but look into it.
    Originally posted by DCFC79
    A Freedom Of Information request is different from a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act, the former being a means of extracting all sorts of information from public sector (only) organisations, whereas the latter is the way to obtain personal data from any organisation operating in the UK.

    So, it's the latter that applies here - since GDPR kicked in in May, there is no longer any fee involved (companies could charge 10 before). Further details at https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/your-right-of-access/
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 12th Oct 18, 4:45 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    Sitrep: I contacted the bank again after getting no where with paypal themselves. The bank got me to fill out an indemnity request form and the money that was missing was back in my account less than 24 hours later. However today the money has gone missing again, the same amount. It looks as if Paypal have entered my account and taken it themselves.

    I've called them to discuss it, they say they have no record of the bank to a charge back and they also have no record of the money being taken back again from my account.

    The money wasn't taken as a payment that had been made through my paypal account, so that rules that out. And they also have no other accounts on their file with my bank details.

    Now I'm having to embarassingly send them one of my bank statements as proof of what I'm saying has happened. So now they have access to everything incoming and outgoing from my account including my bank balance.

    What the hell is going on?!
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 12th Oct 18, 5:01 PM
    • 8,769 Posts
    • 10,034 Thanks
    eskbanker
    I'd have thought that this signifies that your bank issued a chargeback against PayPal but that PayPal have disputed it, so your bank will have reversed the reimbursement rather than PayPal having helped themselves directly. If this is the case then your bank should be able to confirm what's happened, even if PayPal aren't making any sense....
    • SMF1
    • By SMF1 12th Oct 18, 6:54 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    SMF1
    Paypal couldn't make any sense of it. They said they hadn't received the initial indemnity and they had no record of them charging the payment back today.

    Bank said nothing on it and completed another indemnity form to get it back gain. Spoke to a really helpful chap from Paypal who couldn't sympathize with me enough which was nice as until it's basically felt like everyone I've spoke to from Paypal is treating my like a criminal who is trying to do them out of money which I do understand but still.
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