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  • FIRST POST
    • nitaa
    • By nitaa 21st Sep 18, 2:03 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 9Thanks
    nitaa
    appeal rejected by parkingeye, any chance to win in POPLA?
    • #1
    • 21st Sep 18, 2:03 PM
    appeal rejected by parkingeye, any chance to win in POPLA? 21st Sep 18 at 2:03 PM
    I parked in a private car park next to the beach(i do not know the land owner), take my kids to play around.
    I paid for 3 hours and the ticket showed started from 11:10, I went back to the car park just about 14:10, then settled my kids in car and left.
    PCN received 1 week later, it has 2 camera photos of my car entering and leaving the car park, time shows 11:02 to 14:15. 13 minutes over parked.
    I remembered I did queue for a few minutes at payment machine, that is why my ticket shows 11:10 (but compared the exit time still 5 minutes over parked), I did not expect car park counts time at exit (loading the sand toys and a beach tent, settle 2 kids in the car then drive out does need a few minutes, I definitely got back to my car in time)
    I appealed to parkingeye about the ticket, they rejected me, I wonder how much chance I can win at POPLA, any experienced person can give some advice? Thanks.
Page 2
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Oct 18, 3:15 PM
    • 13,708 Posts
    • 14,998 Thanks
    KeithP
    I think before they solved the viewing issue, 7 days should not start to count.
    Originally posted by nitaa
    Then why not ring PoPLA?
    .
    • nitaa
    • By nitaa 16th Oct 18, 10:00 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    nitaa
    After contacting with POPLA, I can view the evidence now, PE issue back a 40 pages pdf to provide their evidence.(most of pages are photos and appeal letter/ parking charge copies, not much useful infomation)
    here is their statement:
    1. grace period.
    ParkingEye operates a minimum grace period of ten minutes or more on all sites which gives the motorist time to enter a car park, park, and establish whether or not they wish to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking.
    A grace period of 10 minutes or more is in place at this site which is fully compliant with clauses 13.2 and 30.2 of BPA code of practice which states ‘If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes’.

    obviously, they did not mention 13.4 at all, which also give minimum 10 mins for leave. I will rebut this.
    2. signage
    they show the ANRP image that my car did not had headlight on to prove it is bright day time to see signage clearly. and they post a few picture of their signage and quote:'You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.' they also state they are leading user of ANPR technology and ensure they have best camera, they list bpa section 21.1-21.5
    obviously, they did not state ANPR use to calculate parking time and issue parking charge. and no evidence of well-maintained record.
    3. they post my appeal letter on ,which I was polite to them and apologized for 5 mins delay in leaving. they want to show I am in down position.
    4. they post the car park signage layout plan and leave some on site photos, the photos with time stamp in this April/May, which is about 3-4 months before I park, I am quite sure it is not the exactly same one when i was parking, but similar. the picture has tiny T&C letters even cannot read in their picture.
    I will rebut this at poor signage part, please advice any other thing I can mention.
    5. they show a landowner signed letter to agree the"operator PE issue a parking charges for the parkin gevent dates 4 April 2018 to 4th oct 2018"
    the signature time is "4/10/2018", i do not know if it is signed on 10th Apr or 4th Oct, if it is the second, does that mean they do that after seeing my appeal with POPLA? is that OK?

    please give any advice and I will try to type more details if needed.

    Thanks for all advisors
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Oct 18, 11:13 AM
    • 22,586 Posts
    • 35,543 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Don't forget, before you start drafting your rebuttal, that you only have 2,000 characters (not words) to utilise. Also, you cannot introduce any new evidence that you have not previously included (or alluded to) in your original POPLA appeal.

    You have 7 days to send your rebuttal via the online facility - although effectively it's more like 6 days. Don't miss the deadline.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nitaa
    • By nitaa 16th Oct 18, 4:23 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    nitaa
    Here is the structure of PE's evidence:
    section A evidence check list (a table with ticks)
    section B Case summary/rule and conditions (parking time and appeal date summary; attached authority letter signed on 4/10/2018 allowed PE to issue parking ticket; debate grace period refer to BPA 13.2 to emphasis they give 10 mins to enter and decide; state they are leading user of ANPR technology, listed BPA 21.1-21.5, how mature and widely used of network time protocol so their camera is accurate. )
    section C copy of PCN
    section D registered keeper detials/liability trail (my car details and photos I drove in/out car park with timestamp)
    section E original representation (my 1st email to appeal to PE that I explain why I took 5 mins after end of park to leave)
    section F images, photographs and site plan (many photos they took on site, closer look, far look, blur enough, and their site layout plan. )

    Here is my rebut about 1400 charaters
    SECTION B: ANPR. For the perspective of ANPR system, no matter how experienced ParkingEye(PE) is in using ANPR and how widely this technology have been used; PE still need to prove the cameras are well-maintained regularly to ensure the accuracy of the data captured by ANPR. I did not see any evidence about their maintenance and calibration.
    SECTION B: Grace period. PE listed BPA code 13.2 that means they accept my parking started from 11:10am is valid, then for BPA code 13.4 also states the “Grace period at the end of parking period should be a minimum 10 minutes. “ Let us assume the ANPR is perfectly accurate, it showed I drove out of car park at 14:15, which is fully compliance with BPA 13.4
    SECTION E: In my original appeal email, I explained clearly I used 5 minutes to manage my way out of car park, and it is what Grace period designed for. I was very polite and showed gesture of goodwill in the email does not mean I break the rule.
    SECTION F: Signage. PE announced the car park has “clear, ample” signage. I cannot read T&C clearly in any picture PE attached in evidence (even on page 35 and 37, such a closer look picture cannot show the T&C clearly; picture on page 32, which is less than a car distance, only big bold letter is readable), how PE suppose driver should read that clearly when driving in a car? Furthermore, none of signage photo stated ANPR image data can violate parking ticket to calculate parking time and image data is use to issue parking charge notice. the signage is unclear either in meaning or in appearance.


    anything more I should add?
    Last edited by nitaa; 16-10-2018 at 4:32 PM.
    • nitaa
    • By nitaa 15th Nov 18, 9:59 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    nitaa
    Guys, I received the decision from POPLA which said my appeal unsuccessful, decision said " I do not consider the 12 minutes at the end of the parking session to be within this reasonable period. "
    I am so disappointed that I emphasis so many times, my ticket showed the start time is 11:10 and I leave at 14:15, which is only 5 mins overstay, but assessor still count start time using ANPR time. It is unfair since ANPR time is not visible for me during parking.
    what I should do now? wait for the court prosecution or debt collector?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Nov 18, 10:00 AM
    • 38,348 Posts
    • 22,316 Thanks
    Quentin
    Once POPLA appeal is rejected you go into the debt collector stage


    All explained in the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum - see #4 there
    • nitaa
    • By nitaa 6th Dec 18, 5:37 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    nitaa
    I win!!!
    Guys, I am glad to say my ticket has been cancelled.
    Here is the story after I lose my POPLA appeal.
    After seeing the POPLA decision, I raise the complaint to POPLA immediately, I thought the assessor ignore the Entry Grace Period and made the wrong decision. Meanwhile, I complain to BPA (Approved Operator Scheme team, who accept the enquiries/complaint if any member breach BPA code) that their member (parkingeye) breach the BPA code of practice that not giving the Grace period defined in 13.2 and 13.4.
    It was quite peace for the following few weeks, both POPLA and BPA not response very quick.
    I did not received any letter from debt collector, instead, I received a LBCCC after 28 days of POPLA decsion. (see, when you lose the appeal, PE will not waste any money on debt collector, they just issue you the LBCCC without receiving money in 28 days)
    My complaint to POPLA was answered 3 weeks later, without surprise, they did not change their decision.
    BPA does take my complaint more serious and create an investigation case . (I insist entry grace period and leave grace period are 2 different grace period defined in BPA code, therefore I am fully compliant with that, any ticket against that will breach BPA Code)
    and here is the reply I received from BPA today:

    Good afternoon,
    Thank you for your patience whilst we have approached the parking operator on your behalf.

    I am advised that the charge has now been cancelled as a gesture of good will.

    Please be advised in regards to the exit grace period, the Code of Practice states;

    “13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

    This period covers paying at the start of the parking contract and leaving at the end. It is not necessarily a full 10 minutes at the end of the period of parking and it is not in addition to the entry grace period because the entry grace period is only applicable if the motorist does not stay.

    As the operator has responded accordingly, this case is now closed. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and assisting us to raise standards within the private parking sector.


    This is a really good news for me as I am already started to prepare my court hearing!

    Something I learnt from this case:
    1. the BPA code now is not rigorous enough to cover the meaning above, therefore BPA may update that to avoid similar dispute in future. Everyone please be careful to avoid my situation.
    2. always keep looking for all approach to escalate you issue if you do believe you have solid ground to make things change.
    3. being calm and polite all the time during complaint, express your opinion clear and tough.

    Thanks all the advisers in this forum.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Dec 18, 5:48 PM
    • 21,914 Posts
    • 27,523 Thanks
    Redx
    thank you


    I doubt that the BPA will change that wording at all


    they will wait and see what the new Private Parking CoP says once it becomes law


    https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/parkingcodeofpractice.html


    well done for persevering though, and I think a judge may have taken a different view of those 2 grace periods
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Dec 18, 5:56 PM
    • 22,586 Posts
    • 35,543 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Over the years the CoP has been watered down in favour of the BPA members. Once a 'nerve ending' started to be exposed, on went a sticking plaster to protect the PPCs from nasty motorists who were unfairly exploiting any opportunity.

    But as Redx says, the CoP is now unlikely to have any further revisions as Parliament is lined up to impose one of their own on PPC world.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • John Blaze
    • By John Blaze 13th Jan 19, 12:50 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    John Blaze
    so glad i sold my car
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Jan 19, 1:25 PM
    • 39,155 Posts
    • 87,430 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    so glad i sold my car
    Originally posted by John Blaze
    That won't help if you got a PCN in the preceding 6 years, but what has it got to do with the OP's situation?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 19, 12:26 AM
    • 68,718 Posts
    • 80,961 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Could it be someone trying to build a post count?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-01-2019 at 12:32 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Jan 19, 7:34 AM
    • 10,813 Posts
    • 10,255 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    and here is the reply I received from BPA today:

    Good afternoon,
    Thank you for your patience whilst we have approached the parking operator on your behalf.

    I am advised that the charge has now been cancelled as a gesture of good will.

    Please be advised in regards to the exit grace period, the Code of Practice states;

    “13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

    This period covers paying at the start of the parking contract and leaving at the end. It is not necessarily a full 10 minutes at the end of the period of parking and it is not in addition to the entry grace period because the entry grace period is only applicable if the motorist does not stay.

    As the operator has responded accordingly, this case is now closed. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and assisting us to raise standards within the private parking sector.


    .
    Originally posted by nitaa
    Very glad you won, but that reply from the BPA is not really good news for the regulars on the forum. Regular advice from here in that there are two periods of grace each with its own 10 minute period. This very clear reply blows that assertion out of the water.

    They are saying that a total time outside that paid for or free time in 10 minutes, not 10 before and 10 after.

    So, any regular from now on giving advice based on 10 plus 10 will be potentially misleading the OP I'm afraid.
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