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  • FIRST POST
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 6:44 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Rudedog
    Likelihood of success with POPLA appeal
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:44 PM
    Likelihood of success with POPLA appeal 15th Sep 18 at 6:44 PM
    Hello! I received a PCN from NCP for overstaying by 12 minutes. I appealed, explaining that my 6 year old who is under the bowel and bladder service for sudden urgency of urination needed the toilet just as I had put the children in their car seats. We had to return to the shopping centre to use the toilet. Whilst there, I repeatedly tried to top up my parking using the RingGo app but kept getting an Ďerrorí message. I continued to try until I reached the car, again secured kids in car seats and left. I did not have any other method of payment- I use the car park frequently and have never had an issue with the app. My question is is it worth appealing to POPLA? I donít want to have to pay £100 instead of £60 if my chances are low. It just feels very unfair given the circumstances. Many thanks for your time, I realise the experts here get hundreds of these queries.
Page 1
    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 15th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
    • 435 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Grimble
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
    The crystal ball we have has been returned to the manufactures as the mists do not clear, we have not a clue. POPLA is not based on mitigating circumstances. You need to put points of law, i:e signs not readable, grace periods, disability rights etc.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Sep 18, 7:01 PM
    • 37,914 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:01 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:01 PM
    If you are asking for a steer on those points winning at Popla then no chance

    But read up on popla appeals in the newbies FAQ thread, construct yours and put it up for comments before sending it.

    And losing at Popla doesn't mean that you have to then pay!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Sep 18, 7:12 PM
    • 19,874 Posts
    • 25,173 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:12 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:12 PM
    download and read the BPA CoP , january 2018, especially read clause #13

    ask yourself if they failed to stick to clause #13

    construct a popla appeal with clause #13 as the number 1) item (grace periods , one before , one after)

    add no contract, signage issues etc onto this popla appeal as well as grace periods

    it should win on grace periods alone

    also email the BPA AOS team with a copy of the NTK and a copy of the refusal, and say that NCP are yet again in breach of clause #13 because they failed the overstay time allowed as there are 2 periods of time, one before , one after. ask the BPA to sanction NCP for this continuing practice which is making a mockery of their CoP

    forget about what happened on the day, its not relevant at all

    legal points will win this case, probably at popla
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 7:29 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:29 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:29 PM
    Thank you, thatís really helpful.
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 7:41 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:41 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:41 PM
    Clause #13 has no mention of a grace period Ďbeforeí though that would have been used buying a ticket presumably. NCPís grace period Ďafterí is 10 minutes so I was still 2 minutes over.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Sep 18, 7:57 PM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:57 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 7:57 PM
    Clause #13 has no mention of a grace period ‘before’ though that would have been used buying a ticket presumably. NCP’s grace period ‘after’ is 10 minutes so I was still 2 minutes over.
    Originally posted by Rudedog
    Clause 13.2 and 13.4 of the BPA CoP cover the 'before' and 'after' ten minute periods respectively:
    13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    Last edited by KeithP; 20-09-2018 at 11:42 PM.
    .
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 8:08 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:08 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:08 PM
    Both of those sound like Ďafterí to me, the same thing written in different ways? Besides, could they not argue that it is the Ďafterí period that is beyond the 10 minutes grace as I was Phptographed leaving 12 minutes after the ticket expiration? Thanks again for you help with this.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    • 63,839 Posts
    • 76,487 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    Google Kelvin Reynolds grace periods BPA operators.

    This has all been said before. There is a 'before and after time'; read the BPA article you find when you do that Google search, telling you that 'observation period' is separate, and it talks about the time taking longer, for reasons including a disability.
    My question is is it worth appealing to POPLA? I don’t want to have to pay £100 instead of £60 if my chances are low.
    Yes it is if you do it properly like all the other POPLA grace periods Equality Act threads (search this forum - not a Google search this time).

    What on earth makes you think anyone here pays, just because they might lose at POPLA? You do not then have to pay!

    If this went to court (after a rare POPLA loss) in any case, your son meets the definition of disability in the Equality Act 2010, meaning he has 'protected characteristics'. This means the retail park had to allow a reasonable adjustment added to the usual grace period offered to people without protected characteristics.

    But POPLA do not consider EA arguments because they don't understand them.

    A court would! And a retailer would, as well!

    So, put the POPLA appeal on the back burner (the code lasts 32 days, please don't reply telling me it only lasts 28, please don't. It lasts 32, believe us!).

    And complain to the retail park and/or the Store Managers this coming week, and press the Equality Act issue.

    The retail park are guilty of disability discrimination (whether you like that term used to refer to your little lad's medical condition or not, it's true in law), because they are liable for the illegal actions of the parking firm.

    Come back and tell us in a week, how the complaints go. It should be cancelled, no POPLA needed. You may need to speak to the managing agents of the entire retail park (most have a website with a phone number 'contact us').
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-09-2018 at 8:43 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Sep 18, 8:50 PM
    • 20,226 Posts
    • 31,900 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    It's always so frustrating that expert advice from seasoned regulars gets questioned....... and then further questioned/argued.

    I tend to give it once. Take it or leave it, I'm just too busy to 'beg' people to believe me!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Sep 18, 8:53 PM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    I tend to give it once. Take it or leave it, I'm just too busy to 'beg' people to believe me!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Yep, me too.
    .
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 9:34 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    Itís a car park attached to a shopping arcade, rather than a retail park - I donít have any receipts to show or anything as use the car park thereís to visit my orthodontist. Is it still worth contacting the stores? Thanks.
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 15th Sep 18, 9:38 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    I wasnít trying to ignore/disrespect/argue with anyone- I was trying to understand the clauses properly in order to be able to construct my argument for appeal. Perhaps I didnít word this carefully enough, please accept my apologies.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 15th Sep 18, 9:57 PM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    It’s a car park attached to a shopping arcade, rather than a retail park...
    Originally posted by Rudedog
    Can you not complain to the shopping arcade management along the lines suggested by Coupon-mad - about EA2010 reasonable adjustments?
    Last edited by KeithP; 20-09-2018 at 11:43 PM.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Sep 18, 10:41 PM
    • 63,839 Posts
    • 76,487 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It’s a car park attached to a shopping arcade, rather than a retail park - I don’t have any receipts to show or anything as use the car park, there to visit my orthodontist. Is it still worth contacting the stores? Thanks.
    Originally posted by Carlymcauley
    What did you think, after you read 'SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINTS ABOUT PPCs' a long thread of successes that is linked in the NEWBIES thread where it tells EVERYONE to complain, and where the example successes prove half the people had no receipt...?

    Where do I say 'complain to the retailer but only if you have a receipt'? (I don't).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Sep 18, 9:20 AM
    • 37,914 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    Itís a car park attached to a shopping arcade, rather than a retail park - I donít have any receipts to show or anything as use the car park thereís to visit my orthodontist. Is it still worth contacting the stores? Thanks.
    Originally posted by Carlymcauley
    So complain to the dentist.

    You were a "customer" of theirs!
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Sep 18, 11:18 AM
    • 37,914 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving


    You need to edit your posts to remove details of who was driving


    If you have inadvertently used your real name as your forum name then you need to ask MSE to change it to something truly anonymous


    The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you
    • Rudedog
    • By Rudedog 19th Sep 18, 12:31 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rudedog
    Hello again. I’ve called the manager of the shopping arcade (I spend money there every time I visit- just not big purchases that I’d keep receipts for) and although friendly, he said that NCP have their own contract for the land the car park is on and that it’s a separate entity and nothing to do with them. He gave me the number of the person who manages the car park and I’ve called repeatedly but the phone is never answered. Any advice as to where I go from here please? Thanks!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Sep 18, 3:35 PM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    Any advice as to where I go from here please?
    Originally posted by Rudedog
    Does this sentence from Quentin's post still need your attention:
    If you have inadvertently used your real name as your forum name then you need to ask MSE to change it to something truly anonymous
    If so, perhaps reading this short extract from The MSE Forum Guide - Frequently Asked Questions & Rules will help:
    Q. How can I change my username?

    A.
    In most circumstances, this is not permitted.

    The only reason we will change your username is if it puts your privacy at risk. This usually means you've inadvertently registered using your name, email address or something that gives away your identity within your username.

    If you fall into this category, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com and request that it is changed, giving three alternative usernames in order of preference.
    Last edited by KeithP; 20-09-2018 at 11:43 PM.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Sep 18, 4:29 PM
    • 19,874 Posts
    • 25,173 Thanks
    Redx
    Any advice as to where I go from here please? Thanks!
    Originally posted by Carlymcauley

    I already told you where to go next in post #4


    POPLA


    so construct your popla appeal including grace periods as the first item
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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