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  • FIRST POST
    • petersprojection
    • By petersprojection 15th Sep 18, 5:35 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 1Thanks
    petersprojection
    Tool Hire Faulty
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 18, 5:35 PM
    Tool Hire Faulty 15th Sep 18 at 5:35 PM
    Hello,

    Could someone point me in the right direction please? I have read some of the guides on here, but there are so many possible routes that I should maybe be taking?!

    I reserved and paid by (business) credit card, to hire 2 tracked wheelbarrows from a tool hire company. They took £500 from my card as deposit and said the cost would be £100 each machine for the week plus £15 - £20 delivery each way (I need to check the delivery cost I was quoted).

    In summary, the machines were unusable. One needed replacing before I had even got it on the trailer (it was about falling apart, so poorly maintained, petrol sloshing out because of lack of seals, hydraulic oil spraying everywhere, on off switch falling off - it was dangerous), and the other had the starter cord cover fall off which we had to go and buy bolts for to secure - as the response from the hire company had been less than reassuring. This was also very dangerous as that cover covers a very high speed spinning piece of metal close to the operators foot. The machine that was originally replaced was replaced with a machine that broke down after less than 40 minutes use, blocked our only access to the rear of the property and was left there at an unoccupied property overnight with it not being covered by my insurance as I could not move it to secure it and the hire company would not accept responsibility. They did not send someone to move it until the next day and keep promising that a manager will call me but he never does. I made 9 phone calls to them that first day, very polite, explaining the situation and saying they need to get someone to it as it can't even be made safe.

    I have all logs and photos and videos of the events. They cost me time and money by providing machines that should not have been sent out with even just one of the faults present. On the second day I took on 2 extra staff due to needing to get the work completed and having still not heard from the company despite my making 9 phone calls the previous day. The fitter later told me he "was off that day".

    So, my opinion is that I hired what should have been functioning machines. They were not. It was not only foreseeable that they would not be suitable for use, it was downright obvious. So I do not believe I should be charged for the one machine (I rejected the second time they offered to replace it as I had taken the extra staff on and they were obviously incompetent), and for the other machine, if I am to pay anything, then it should take into account the stress, hassle, time going to buy bolts to fix it and two extra staffs wages for the machine that never worked, replacement or not.

    So, credit card says they can't do anything because it is a 'quality of service' issue and it wasn't defective. I would strongly say they were both defective. Hire company tells me they will get a manager to call me (never does).

    Should I write to the tool hire company first as the credit card company instructed? Using which template? Should the credit card company take care of it?

    There seems to be a few options and I am not sure which way I should go, but this has cost me a lot of money already and I do not wish to pay the tool hire company for the 'pleasure'.

    Thank you.
Page 1
    • bris
    • By bris 15th Sep 18, 6:18 PM
    • 7,896 Posts
    • 6,864 Thanks
    bris
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:18 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:18 PM
    As a business you have no consumer rights, nor will the CC give you any S75 protection as it's a consumer right.


    You are bound by the terms of the hire contract, read it and then see what it says regarding faulty goods.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 15th Sep 18, 6:28 PM
    • 10,268 Posts
    • 11,554 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:28 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:28 PM
    As a business you have no consumer rights, nor will the CC give you any S75 protection as it's a consumer right.
    Originally posted by bris


    You've stated this before (and been corrected before so why do you keep stating it as it is incorrect.
    As far as S75 is concerned, the OP may well be covered by this.
    S75 does not only apply to private consumers. It also applies to sole traders, small partnerships and unincorporated businesses.
    • bris
    • By bris 15th Sep 18, 8:03 PM
    • 7,896 Posts
    • 6,864 Thanks
    bris
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:03 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:03 PM
    You've stated this before (and been corrected before so why do you keep stating it as it is incorrect.
    As far as S75 is concerned, the OP may well be covered by this.
    S75 does not only apply to private consumers. It also applies to sole traders, small partnerships and unincorporated businesses.
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    Nonsense,
    Who does the sale of goods legislation apply to?

    The Consumer Rights Act refers to ‘traders’ and ‘consumers’. When you’re acting for purposes that relate to your trade, business or profession, you’re counted as a ‘trader.’ This means that a ‘trader’ can be a self-employed person, a limited company, a charity, or another individual or organisation.
    Under the law, a ‘consumer’ is someone who isn’t acting for the purposes of a business when they deal with the trader. This means that a business that buys goods isn’t counted as a consumer under the Consumer Rights Act, and business-to-business (B2B) transactions don’t have the same protection.
    • bris
    • By bris 15th Sep 18, 8:11 PM
    • 7,896 Posts
    • 6,864 Thanks
    bris
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:11 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:11 PM
    Does Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act apply to Business Credit Cards?
    Many of you will use your credit card almost every day. And, if you have a business credit card account, it is likely that either you or your employees will be charging expenses to the account on a regular basis.
    Using a credit card to pay for goods or services is common. This is particularly true of companies who use business credit cards to closely monitor expenses and to keep a track of their company outgoings.
    One of the advantages of using a credit card (rather than a debit card, cash or a cheque) is that, under credit card legislation contained in section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, if you have a claim against a supplier for breach of contract or misrepresentation, you will generally also have an equal claim against the issuer of the credit card.
    But, does this rule apply to business credit cards?
    Section 75 for consumer cards only

    The answer is NO. According to the Financial Ombudsman Service, Section 75 does not apply to business credit cards. It is the ‘consumer’ part of the ‘Consumer Credit Act’ (which section 75 is part of) that stops the rule applying to business credit cards.
    So, if you own and regularly use a business credit card, you will not have an equal claim against the issuer of a card if you do have to make a claim against a supplier for breach of contract.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 15th Sep 18, 11:00 PM
    • 10,268 Posts
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    shaun from Africa
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:00 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:00 PM
    The answer is NO. According to the Financial Ombudsman Service, Section 75 does not apply to business credit cards.
    Originally posted by bris
    Instead of posting information from unverified websites, have a look at the actual legislation and the Financial Ombudsman's website.

    Even though it's called the Consumer credit act, S75 specifically refers to debtors and not consumers:
    (1)If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor
    And what exactly is a debtor?
    Again, according to the Consumer credit act:
    debtor” means the individual receiving credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement includes the prospective debtor
    And the CCA definition of an individual?
    individual” includes
    (a) a partnership consisting of two or three persons not all of whom are bodies corporate; and
    (b) an unincorporated body of persons which does not consist entirely of bodies corporate and is not a partnership;
    And the Financial ombudsman:

    https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/62/62-consumer-credit.htm

    For Section 75 to apply, in the first instance the following four conditions must all be satisfied:

    The cash price of the goods or services bought by the consumer must be over £100 and not more than £30,000.

    The amount of credit provided to the consumer towards the purchase must not exceed £25,000, and must have been provided to an 'individual' (which includes sole traders, small partnerships and unincorporated businesses, as well as ordinary consumers).
    The provider of credit must be in the business of lending money, and the credit agreement must have been made in the course of that business.

    The credit must have been provided to the consumer under pre-existing arrangements between the provider of credit and the supplier of the goods and services.
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 16th Sep 18, 9:51 AM
    • 1,367 Posts
    • 1,176 Thanks
    tacpot12
    • #7
    • 16th Sep 18, 9:51 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Sep 18, 9:51 AM
    I think your best option is to go into the branch to pay the bill and discuss it with the manager. You need to make sure you get the £500 deposit back, and you can negotiate about not paying for the one bad machine, and getting some discount for the machine where you had to make the repairs. Just deduct the cost of the bolts and the time to get them from the hire cost. Use the fact that you have a Health & Safety responsibility to your staff as being the reason why you couldn't use the machine in the state it was supplied in.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 16th Sep 18, 9:56 AM
    • 16,363 Posts
    • 12,430 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #8
    • 16th Sep 18, 9:56 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Sep 18, 9:56 AM
    Is this a small company?
    Did it have labels on saying when it had last been serviced?
    The rate you were charged seems to be about half the going rate.
    Last edited by hollydays; 16-09-2018 at 10:09 AM.
    • undetterred
    • By undetterred 16th Sep 18, 10:27 AM
    • 453 Posts
    • 489 Thanks
    undetterred
    • #9
    • 16th Sep 18, 10:27 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Sep 18, 10:27 AM
    As you noticed the issues before putting them on the trailer?why put them on the trailer?
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 16th Sep 18, 10:48 AM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 4,241 Thanks
    George Michael
    Does Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act apply to Business Credit Cards?
    Originally posted by bris
    The consumer credit act doesn't refer to credit cards in any form. It simply refers to credit.
    What else does that website state?
    https://www.compareandsave.com/blog/does-section-75-consumer-credit-act-apply-business-credit-cards
    Any rates and information shown are for editorial purposes only and, while we have taken reasonable care to ensure the accuracy of the information, this cannot be guaranteed. Freedom Marketing Ltd, including its management and staff, disclaims liability for any loss, howsoever caused, arising directly or indirectly from the use and content on this website.
    As you noticed the issues before putting them on the trailer?why put them on the trailer?
    Originally posted by undetterred
    As the OP writes about a delivery charge, I think (but I may be wrong) that when they refer to putting it on a trailer, this is after they have taken possession of the wheelbarrows and they might have been moving them to a different part of the work site.
    Last edited by George Michael; 16-09-2018 at 10:50 AM.
    • petersprojection
    • By petersprojection 17th Sep 18, 8:04 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    petersprojection
    Originally I thought that the business card didn't offer protection from something I had read somewhere (possibly on MSE). However, just before I started this post I read something written by Martin or his staff that said ALL credit cards offered protection. The confusing part was whether I should be approaching them or taking another avenue. When I did speak with them they were not so helpful as described in my first post citing it as a 'quality of service' issue.

    As you noticed the issues before putting them on the trailer?why put them on the trailer?
    Originally posted by undetterred
    ”As the OP writes about a delivery charge, I think (but I may be wrong) that when they refer to putting it on a trailer, this is after they have taken possession of the wheelbarrows and they might have been moving them to a different part of the work site.
    Yes, that is correct. The barrows were delivered to a delivery address and then we were to transport them to site each day and bring them back at the end of the day to ensure that they were secure etc. First one went on the trailer, the second never even made it onto the trailer and was replaced before it left the delivery address. The replacement then didn't last for 40 minutes before it refused to move.


    So, reading the above posts - particularly Shaun, thank you, I should follow it through with the card company?

    I think your best option is to go into the branch to pay the bill and discuss it with the manager. You need to make sure you get the £500 deposit back, and you can negotiate about not paying for the one bad machine, and getting some discount for the machine where you had to make the repairs. Just deduct the cost of the bolts and the time to get them from the hire cost. Use the fact that you have a Health & Safety responsibility to your staff as being the reason why you couldn't use the machine in the state it was supplied in.
    I know that might help - only maybe, but I don't have the time to be going the other side of town to try to negotiate with a company who is fobbing me off and not even calling back. I've been running this business for 2.5 years, it's growing and I spend almost every waking hour trying to make sure it is right. I am on site every day and can't leave my current staff on their own and don't want to cover the cost of having them travel to the rental place with me instead of earning. It should be possible to sort this over the phone or through the right channels if needed without me taking time out from work to travel to the showroom.

    Is this a small company?
    Did it have labels on saying when it had last been serviced?
    The rate you were charged seems to be about half the going rate.
    There were no stickers with service / inspection dates etc. The company is Advance Tool Hire. I found them online, there website looked professional and on the telephone the staff seemed professional and helpful when booking and paying for the machine. It's providing a safe and functioning machine where they failed. I had the going rate down at £150 per week and yes, that is the reason that I chose Advance as it was to save me £100. I really did think it was just a decent price from a professional company though and not a case of 'you get what you pay for' (though I didn't even get that!).
    • Ganga
    • By Ganga 18th Sep 18, 3:52 PM
    • 1,273 Posts
    • 667 Thanks
    Ganga
    I presume these were tracked wheelbarrows with a tipping/rising skip.When the recoil starter asy fell off you should have taken a photo as i agree the spinning engine flywheel would indeed be dangerous,use the photo to add leverage with the depot manager re. discount.
    If you get no joy with discount you can always go on social media and leave a truthfull if non complimentary review,best of luck.
    ITS NOT EASY TO GET EVERYTHING WRONG ,I HAVE TO WORK HARD TO DO IT!
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 18th Sep 18, 5:39 PM
    • 16,363 Posts
    • 12,430 Thanks
    hollydays
    Speak to the HSE too.
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