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  • FIRST POST
    • Jo0804
    • By Jo0804 15th Sep 18, 8:49 AM
    • 3Posts
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    Jo0804
    ANPR double dip case - small claims court stage
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:49 AM
    ANPR double dip case - small claims court stage 15th Sep 18 at 8:49 AM
    I'm sorry to be posting a new thread but I'm really hoping for some advice and support. I've read the Newbies thread and really tried to follow the advice in there, however there is so much info and so many links to other long threads that I've found it quite overwhelming to try to find information on my particular circumstances. I'm at the stage that I've just filled in the form for allocating what court my case will be allocated to.

    To give background on the case, I received PCN from Vehicle Control Services for overstaying in a retail car park about a year ago. I park in this car park a lot as I shop in the Lidl and Pets at Home and use the vets and the dog groomers there. It's also right across from my daughter's school so I park there to drop her off and pick her up sometimes (the terms and conditions for using the car park make no mention of having to be a customer to car there). On the day in question I brought my dog to the vet about 10 in the morning and left, then returned later in the day to pick my daughter up from school and left. I then received the PCN showing my first entry and last exit. I appealed to the IAS and lost. Ignored all the debt collector letters and filed a defence a week or two ago. I've come this far as I know I didn't stay there so I'm in the right but I'm starting to regret it as I'm no lawyer and I haven't a clue about witness statements and have never been in a court! I also have pretty much no evidence to prove I left the car park that day. My husband thinks I should get a solicitor or just pay VCS as it's taking so much time and stress.

    For the defence this is what I sent in:
    I deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:

    The car was not parked for the time stated - this was two visits caught wrongly by ANPR. The Defendant made two different visits to the retail park in question on 13/09/2017 between 09:57 to approximately 10:30 and approximately 14:50 to 15:06. However, this was shown by this Claimant's ANPR in error, as a single long stay from 09:57 to 15:06, which is not true. In fact,the Defendant brought her dog to the vet’s practice in the retail park on the first visit and returned later in the day to pick her daughter up from her primary school across the road from the retail park on the second visit. In the time between these visits, the Defendant returned, in her car, to her home address (2.5 miles from the retail park) and went for a run from her home address for some of that time (recorded on her Google Maps timeline and Runtastic app).

    The car visited twice that day and parked on two separate occasions, within the offer allowed on the signage. There is ample evidence in the public domain that ANPR has an inherent fault in sometimes matching the first entry and the last exit of vehicles that visit the same car park twice. Here are just three examples of BPA member ANPR evidence failures, including a court loss:
    parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2013/05/highview-parking-spurred-into-immediate.html
    parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/03/parkingeye-lose-in-court-accuse-drivers.html
    parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/10/parkingeye-subject-to-data-protection.html

    This 'double dip' fault in ANPR evidence is a fact confirmed by the BPA in the following article: britishparking.co.uk/ANPR in which they state that “As with all new technology, thereare issues associated with its use: Repeat users of a car park inside a 24 hour period sometimes
    find that their first entry is paired with their last exit, resulting in an ‘overstay’. Operators are becoming aware of this and should now be checking all ANPR transactions to ensure that this does not occur.”

    Further evidence of the scale of the fault with ANPR evidence is covered in the BBC Watchdog programme which was screened on the 18/04/2018 (bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1Q8WCKXkmC75Qq4zTPbnbGv/parkingeye). The relevant clip can be viewed here youtube.com/watch?v=WIaKMkO3YVM.

    Yet further evidence of the flaw in ANPR technology is given by a previous virtually identical Parking Charge Notice that was issued to the Defendant by the Claimant in 2016 for allegedly overstaying in the same retail car park. This parking charge was subsequently cancelled by VCS as a result of the Defendant being able to produce evidence that she visited the car park on two separate occasions and had returned home in her car between the visits, despite the PCN having been issued for the time between the entry on the first visit and the exit on the second visit.

    The defendant visits this retail park on many occasions and often twice in one day as a result of being a customer of Lidl, Pets at Home, The Groom Room and Companion Care Vets which are all located in this retail park, along with the fact that the Defendant’s daughter’s school in just across the road from the retail park in question. Considering that the BPA openly admit that ANPR technology is not 100% accurate and the number of visits the Defendant makes to the retail park in question, the ANPR technology has failed on the occasion of her two visits on the day in question (13/09/2017).


    I'd really appreciate any advice on what I have to do from here on if I do continue with this. From what I've read I need to write a witness statement. What other documents should have ready to submit with this witness statement? Is any of the evidence that i quoted in my defence that anpr is flawed of any use to my defence in reality??
Page 1
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 15th Sep 18, 8:56 AM
    • 3,386 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:56 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 8:56 AM
    The Newbies thread shows you how the court process works, and what happens when. Go and familiarise yourself with it. It'll take a couple of reads; as you already know, it's a bit involved, and takes some effort. But be sure to stick to the timescales.

    Do you have further evidence of being elsewhere in the intervening time between visits, e.g. receipts from somewhere, another car park, perhaps, or a reliable independent witness?

    You really should have put in all the usual defence points as well as a backstop. E.g. do the signs say VCS, or do they actually say Excel?

    Keep a record of all the time you spend on this and any expenses. You'll be wanting to claim this from them as their behaviour is, as ever, unreasonable.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Sep 18, 9:03 AM
    • 19,392 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:03 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:03 AM
    You have covered much of what you would put in a WS in what you've written in your Defence, ie what happened on the day. You will need to copy the relevant parts into your WS and attach any evidence you wish to rely on.

    Your running watch data is very helpful to you (can you print it off?). In addition, if you have a smart phone with Location enabled, then Google maps will track your movements that day. If so, it should show your first arrival and departure from the car park, and your subsequent return later.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 15th Sep 18, 9:04 AM
    • 3,178 Posts
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    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:04 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:04 AM
    Did you have a mobile phone with you that has google maps on it?


    If so open the app, click the three lines in the top left corner, click "timeline", it will show today, then click the calendar icon at the top right.


    All your journeys should be logged on the map, and on a timeline underneath by date. It can even scarily show shops, cafe's etc that you visited.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Sep 18, 9:16 AM
    • 9,995 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:16 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:16 AM
    In my opinion, if they took this to court they would crash and burn, doubling dips are so common they would struggle to prove that you overstayed. No need to engage a solicitor, or pay them, but do engage your MP, read this,

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Sep 18, 9:53 AM
    • 4,268 Posts
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    Half_way
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:53 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 9:53 AM
    As youve probably found out, the Parking company process is largely automated, and double dip cases appear to be an increasing issue.


    As stated above, if you have a smartphone, running google maps your times may well be recorded see here https://www.google.com/maps/timeline likewise from your smartwatch/fitness tracker.


    You should also be looking at a counter claim against both the parking company and its principal ( whoever owns the car park) as they would have had no business to access and process your data (GDPR breach)- failing to ensure that their equipment is accurate, and they are using reliable systems ( use other double dip cases that you have found to show that ANPR is inherently inaccurate and flawed)
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Jo0804
    • By Jo0804 15th Sep 18, 10:13 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Jo0804
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 10:13 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 10:13 AM
    Thanks so much for your replies. I'll read the Newbies thread again and try to get to grips with what needs to be done from here. Am I correct in thinking that I'll need to submit my own witness statement which will contain in essence information I submitted in the defence. Along with this I'll submit any other documents as evidence such as the bpa article on anpr, a screenshot from my running app etc?

    Unfortunately back then I only turned on Location on my phone when I went out for the run and off when I finished so don't have location data for the whole day which would have been great. All I can prove is that whoever used my Google account did that run and not that my car left the car park. I have no receipts or anything else so I really need to rely on evidence that anpr is flawed which I don't feel confident with.

    I thought it might be useful to use the letter from the year before from VCS cancelling a previous instance where they sent me a PCN for double dipping (why didn't I learn then not to use that car park twice in one day??) on the basis of 'why would they cancel that one if they were so sure of their anpr technology?'. In that case I was able to produce a receipt from a company who had come to install something at my house that day as proof that I'd been home in between the two visits and so they dropped it before I even appealed.

    I listed some blogs from Parking Cowboy in my defence as proof that anpr - are they any use at all to submit with the witness statement? Similar for a watchdog programme about double dipping - can it be evidence?
    • Jo0804
    • By Jo0804 15th Sep 18, 10:29 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Jo0804
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 10:29 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 10:29 AM
    Sorry that last bit of my last post was meant to say that I listed blogs from Parking prankster as proof that anpr is flawed
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Sep 18, 11:44 AM
    • 10,553 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:44 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:44 AM
    Best defence is proof. Can you get some? Will vet confirm that you left dog and returned?

    Did you draw out any money from an ATM off site?
    Did you buy anything from a store some way away?
    Have you a friend who can corroborate your story?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Sep 18, 11:51 AM
    • 4,268 Posts
    • 6,057 Thanks
    Half_way
    If you have google maps, it may still record your location even with location settings turned off, from what I know it uses either wifi networks, and/or phone mast triangulation, take a look.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Sep 18, 11:56 PM
    • 61,501 Posts
    • 74,384 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Am I correct in thinking that I'll need to submit my own witness statement which will contain in essence information I submitted in the defence. Along with this I'll submit any other documents as evidence such as the bpa article on anpr, a screenshot from my running app etc?
    Yes.

    You are one organised lady and you do NOT need any solicitor, and of course no-one should be throwing ANY money at these scams, certainly not to 'appeals' firms or solicitors.

    Buyer beware (and solicitors do not deal with these every day, like we do). Waste of money - and always check TrustPilot first for any firm you stumble across.

    Everything you've said in your defence makes sense, and everything you've asked us shows you have done some terrific research.

    People like you win, on your own, and this case is likely to be discontinued, I bet.

    You absolutely have a case, and you absolutely 'get' the sort of things to say to tip the balance of probabilities (BoP) in your favour. You do not have to prove things in a civil court case, only to show on the BoP, that your version is indeed the truth. And the PCN is the second time VCS have done this to you, it is atrocious conduct by them and the IAS!

    If you had not already submitted your defence, I would have posted to encourage you to file a counter-claim! Your case is so strong you could have done (too late now, can't be added now without you paying a court fee of 3 figures so forget that).

    Come back here as and when, at WS and evidence stage in particular. Show your husband what you can do with the help of forumites here!

    Oh, and why not send a SAR to VCS' Data Protection Officer, requiring images from their ANPR system, showing every time your car was captured by their ANPR cameras on both occasions that a PCN was issued (not just first arrival/last exit).

    It would be good to see the proof of the pudding from the one they cancelled, and to see ALL images from the day in question.

    Let's see if they are honest with this data they have to supply. Popcorn time for us...!

    ...do the SAR now, there is no reason why the DPO can refuse.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-09-2018 at 12:00 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Sep 18, 9:11 AM
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    Umkomaas
    do the SAR now, there is no reason why the DPO can refuse.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 16th Sep 18, 1:45 PM
    • 3,386 Posts
    • 4,951 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    Unfortunately back then I only turned on Location on my phone when I went out for the run and off when I finished so don't have location data for the whole day which would have been great. All I can prove is that whoever used my Google account did that run and not that my car left the car park.
    Originally posted by Jo0804
    For civil cases like this, it's decided on the "balance of probabilities", rather than the "beyond reasonable doubt" level required for criminal convictions. As such, as long as you appear credible to the judge, and not trying to take the p***, then that kind of data would strengthen your case massively, even if it wasn't cast iron. Piling in more and more "circumstantial" evidence to assist your case will not harm it.
    • steve1500
    • By steve1500 17th Sep 18, 4:41 PM
    • 1,069 Posts
    • 716 Thanks
    steve1500
    Yes.

    Oh, and why not send a SAR to VCS' Data Protection Officer, requiring images from their ANPR system, showing every time your car was captured by their ANPR cameras on both occasions that a PCN was issued (not just first arrival/last exit).

    It would be good to see the proof of the pudding from the one they cancelled, and to see ALL images from the day in question.

    Let's see if they are honest with this data they have to supply. Popcorn time for us...!

    ...do the SAR now, there is no reason why the DPO can refuse.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    For an ANPR SAR you do have to give them a rough time.

    If you don't give them a rough time, then they can refuse the SAR claiming disproportionate effort.

    Anyone getting double dipped should be going after compo.

    Clear breach of the 1st DPA principle
    Private Parking Tickets - Make sure you put your Subject Access Request in after 25th May - It's free & ask for everything, don't forget the DVLA
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Sep 18, 4:48 PM
    • 3,268 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    Clear breach of the 1st DPA principle
    It is a good idea - if you are considering this - to put it to them they should check their installation and maintenance records as you will be asking for them as part of the court process (to narrow the issues).

    Clearly if they spend f-all on maintenance and keep no records they have f-all defence. Any decent ambulance chasing solicitor would ask the same.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
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