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    • Gwendo40
    • By Gwendo40 15th Sep 18, 6:05 AM
    • 176Posts
    • 195Thanks
    Gwendo40
    Holiday Let used as Main Residence
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:05 AM
    Holiday Let used as Main Residence 15th Sep 18 at 6:05 AM
    There's a small barn conversion near me that only gained planning permission on the basis of it being a 'commercial' property i.e a holiday let... which is up for sale advertised as an 'investment property/holiday let'.

    It is to all intents and purposes a 'normal' house... freehold, in it's own grounds, on a public highway,

    What is to stop someone buying it and simply living in it full time as their main residence?
    (Assuming they can provide an alternative postal address?)
Page 1
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 15th Sep 18, 6:10 AM
    • 558 Posts
    • 244 Thanks
    wavelets
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:10 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:10 AM
    There's a small barn conversion near me that only gained planning permission on the basis of it being a 'commercial' property i.e a holiday let... which is up for sale advertised as an 'investment property/holiday let'.

    It is to all intents and purposes a 'normal' house... freehold, in it's own grounds, on a public highway,

    What is to stop someone buying it and simply living in it full time as their main residence?
    (Assuming they can provide an alternative postal address?)
    Originally posted by Gwendo40
    Nothing, as long as you get the current planning permission amended to allow such use.

    that only gained planning permission on the basis of it being a 'commercial' property i.e a holiday let...
    Probably easier said than done. If residentail use was easy to obtain, I'm sure the original planning permission application would have requested that ... and would have had it granted.

    Comment on alternative postal address is irrelevant
    Last edited by wavelets; 15-09-2018 at 6:14 AM.
    • Gwendo40
    • By Gwendo40 15th Sep 18, 6:14 AM
    • 176 Posts
    • 195 Thanks
    Gwendo40
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:14 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:14 AM
    Thank you for the speedy reply.

    And assuming you don't/can't get the current pp amended?
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 15th Sep 18, 6:18 AM
    • 558 Posts
    • 244 Thanks
    wavelets
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:18 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:18 AM
    Thank you for the speedy reply.

    And assuming you don't/can't get the current pp amended?
    Originally posted by Gwendo40
    One would be using the premesis in contravention of the existing permited planning permission , and enforcement action may be taken accordingly.

    See previous threads on similar topic
    e.g.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=956335
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4310979
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1113993
    Last edited by wavelets; 15-09-2018 at 6:20 AM.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 15th Sep 18, 6:48 AM
    • 26,634 Posts
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    Davesnave
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:48 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:48 AM
    The only thing tht would stop you using it as permanent home is enforcement by the local authority.

    How likely enforcement would be these days is a matter for conjecture.

    We are no longer living in 2008, when councils hadn't experienced the effects of austerity, so my guess is that they wouldn't come looking for you. However, as someone else said in one of the threads quoted above, there's often someone local who'll drop you in it if you contravene planning. Once reported, the council would feel bound to investigate and act appropriately.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • Ozzuk
    • By Ozzuk 15th Sep 18, 2:23 PM
    • 1,489 Posts
    • 2,154 Thanks
    Ozzuk
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 2:23 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 18, 2:23 PM
    This comes up a lot. It depends on the planning terms, but many just state you can't live there all year round - 2 weeks in Feb as empty period is common, but can be longer. In reality noone is likely to check and it is a grey area if you say you are providing caretaking of property (I've done this previously).

    A few other considerations, you'll pay business rates not council tax, there could be a requirement for increased insurance and safety things you'll need to do to property (fire escapes, wired smoke alarms etc). You'll need a commercial mortgage, typically higher rate and arrangement fees, LTV usually 50-75% max.

    I did this years ago and successfully got planning for residential. We had to demonstrate the limited commercial viability, we also had to offer the property to the community first. We had supporting letters from neighbours which helped. Pretty easy though. The property is usually worth more with full residential so also check why the current owners didn't just do this - could be a issue you aren't aware of.
    • CIS
    • By CIS 15th Sep 18, 3:04 PM
    • 10,799 Posts
    • 6,263 Thanks
    CIS
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 3:04 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 3:04 PM
    If it's used as 'sole or main residence' then council tax will be due, it will not be regraded as a holiday let under business rates.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a self employed Council Tax paralegal assisting Council Tax payers. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • zagubov
    • By zagubov 15th Sep 18, 5:52 PM
    • 15,609 Posts
    • 132,112 Thanks
    zagubov
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 5:52 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 18, 5:52 PM
    This comes up a lot. It depends on the planning terms, but many just state you can't live there all year round - 2 weeks in Feb as empty period is common, but can be longer. In reality noone is likely to check and it is a grey area if you say you are providing caretaking of property (I've done this previously).

    A few other considerations, you'll pay business rates not council tax, there could be a requirement for increased insurance and safety things you'll need to do to property (fire escapes, wired smoke alarms etc). You'll need a commercial mortgage, typically higher rate and arrangement fees, LTV usually 50-75% max.

    I did this years ago and successfully got planning for residential. We had to demonstrate the limited commercial viability, we also had to offer the property to the community first. We had supporting letters from neighbours which helped. Pretty easy though. The property is usually worth more with full residential so also check why the current owners didn't just do this - could be a issue you aren't aware of.
    Originally posted by Ozzuk
    Does this mean that if the residents go away on holiday for a few weeks they fulfil the requirement for non-continuous occupation?
    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Sep 18, 6:02 PM
    • 33,476 Posts
    • 20,229 Thanks
    getmore4less
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:02 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 18, 6:02 PM
    Check the planning portal and read everything to do with the property.

    Understand the councils position it may be residential was never asked for.
    pay particulate attention to any objections.
    • Gwendo40
    • By Gwendo40 16th Sep 18, 5:14 AM
    • 176 Posts
    • 195 Thanks
    Gwendo40
    Thanks for all the further links and replies, very interesting.

    Demonstrating that the property is not commercially viable does look the most obvious route to pursue in terms of getting change of use to residential.
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 16th Sep 18, 9:49 AM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 1,352 Thanks
    ProDave
    Planning rules have changed. There is now Part Q which may help you, though aimed at changing redundant farm buildings into homes. If this had still been a barn, then part Q now would almost certainly allow it to be converted to a house so you could argue on that basis.

    Otherwise just use it as a house, and if you get away with it for (I think) 10 years you can apply for a certificate of lawful development.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 16th Sep 18, 10:03 AM
    • 26,634 Posts
    • 96,027 Thanks
    Davesnave
    Planning rules have changed. There is now Part Q which may help you, though aimed at changing redundant farm buildings into homes. If this had still been a barn, then part Q now would almost certainly allow it to be converted to a house so you could argue on that basis.

    Otherwise just use it as a house, and if you get away with it for (I think) 10 years you can apply for a certificate of lawful development.
    Originally posted by ProDave

    Class Q still has rules and what the building was used for before is important.
    For example, a barn previously used as stabling for horses wouldn't qualify under Part Q, so I don't see a holiday let being in a more favourable position. We're keeping horses out of our barn for that reason!

    The main thrust of Class Q is as follows but there are other caveats:
    Development not permitted
    Q.1 Development is not permitted by Class Q if—
    a) the site was not used solely for an agricultural use as part of an established agricultural unit—
    (i) on 20th March 2013, or
    (ii) in the case of a building which was in use before that date but was not in use on that date, when it was last in use, or
    (iii) in the case of a site which was brought into use after 20th March 2013, for a period of at least 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;


    This is not to say that rules under Class Q won't be further relaxed as time goes by.
    Last edited by Davesnave; 16-09-2018 at 10:05 AM.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • Gwendo40
    • By Gwendo40 19th Sep 18, 6:49 AM
    • 176 Posts
    • 195 Thanks
    Gwendo40
    Thanks for the further replies, just to add it's in Wales so Class Q doesn't apply.
    • martindow
    • By martindow 19th Sep 18, 10:54 AM
    • 7,822 Posts
    • 4,494 Thanks
    martindow
    Don't assume that because it is rural you can quietly get away with living there without it being noticed. No matter how out of the way it is locals will be well aware of any changes. There is always going to be someone who might tip off the planning people or the parish council.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 19th Sep 18, 11:03 PM
    • 38,128 Posts
    • 160,330 Thanks
    silvercar
    Plenty people live on developments that have only holiday permissions eg the Cotswolds Mill properties (friend or family) and vacate for a month when the development is shut in January.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 20th Sep 18, 8:03 AM
    • 26,634 Posts
    • 96,027 Thanks
    Davesnave
    Don't assume that because it is rural you can quietly get away with living there without it being noticed. No matter how out of the way it is locals will be well aware of any changes. There is always going to be someone who might tip off the planning people or the parish council.
    Originally posted by martindow
    I made this point earlier, but because people know, doesn't mean they will report a breach of planning.

    There are people living next door to me who have been in breach of planning for over 10 years. They are well-known to social services, other bodies and people in the village, but no one has seen any advantage in reporting them, if they even understand the matter. Their landlord will benefit, because the breach means she now has a right to apply for a CLEUD.

    When we bought our property, the vendor's adult daughter + partner were living in a caravan in the grounds. They'd been thee a year or two getting money together for something more permanent. Maybe it wasn't a secret, but it could have been, as it couldn't be viewed from public places.

    The truth is, no one can tell you whether occupying a property in breach of planning conditions will go well or badly, because every situation is individual.
    Last edited by Davesnave; 20-09-2018 at 8:06 AM.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
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