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  • FIRST POST
    • c00k1e316
    • By c00k1e316 14th Sep 18, 8:21 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 3Thanks
    c00k1e316
    Complex Right To By / Ownership Situation
    • #1
    • 14th Sep 18, 8:21 PM
    Complex Right To By / Ownership Situation 14th Sep 18 at 8:21 PM
    Looking for some advice on a complex home ownership situation.

    My mother and I lived in our council house for 25 years (since I was 5 years old) - I bought the house under right to buy.

    Both our names are on the title deed - the council said this had to be the case as my mother was the tenant and I was living with her as her child.

    The agreement states that if we sold the house in 5 years after the purchase, we would have to payback the discount. I bought it 2 years ago.

    My mam is now living with my gran as her full time carer and as the house is mine, we'd both like to take her name off the title deed.

    The government website states:
    You’ll have to pay back some or all of the discount you got if you sell your Right to Buy home within 5 years of buying it.

    You’ll have to pay back all of the discount if you sell within the first year. After that, the total amount you pay back reduces to:

    80% of the discount in the second year
    60% of the discount in the third year
    40% of the discount in the fourth year
    20% of the discount in the fifth year
    The amount you pay back depends on the value of your home when you sell it.


    You may not have to pay back the discount if you transfer ownership of your home to a member of your family. You’ll need to agree this first with your landlord and then get a solicitor to do this for you.
    Would there be any implication of having her name removed from the deeds? I know we would have to go through a solicitor and submit the documents to the land registry but as no cash sale is taking place and no one new is taking on the house? Im not sure its technically even a transfer of ownership as im already named on the deeds and we simply want to remove Mam? I'd like to think she could be removed without consequence?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks

    Ben
Page 2
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 15th Sep 18, 8:55 AM
    • 6,962 Posts
    • 6,649 Thanks
    00ec25
    Another waste of time response.

    What a joke
    Originally posted by c00k1e316
    nothing complex about your situation at all. Your mother had the right to buy, you were merely a party to it as a resident, but not the tenant. All normal stuff when the child eyes up the easy money they set their hearts on in terms of the discount on their parent's home.

    Now why can't you wait another 3 years before the redevelopment? As your mother is no longer living there why the rush to "redevelop", could it be perhaps so you have a nice property all ready and waiting to be sold in 5 years and 1 minute's time?

    If you are unable to use the search function on here to read other's experiences, and don't like the answers you've got so far, then follow your own advice and ask the council, then see a solicitor.
    Last edited by 00ec25; 15-09-2018 at 12:17 PM.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 15th Sep 18, 8:58 AM
    • 3,895 Posts
    • 6,096 Thanks
    bouicca21

    “I knew you and your mother wouldn’t have thought this through properly”

    How utterly and completely rude
    Originally posted by c00k1e316
    But the question you are asking about how to get your mother's name off the deeds so that you can get a longer mortgage to renovate suggest exactly that - that you hadn't thought it through.

    I'd suggest you go for the ten year mortgage (even extensive renovation surely can't be too far out of reach for someone who was able to put down the entire cost of the house in cash). Or do it up bit by bit out of income. You've been very lucky. Count your blessings.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 15th Sep 18, 11:23 AM
    • 4,856 Posts
    • 7,215 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    I really think you should perhaps keep what you think you know to yourself - it’s a little condescending. My mother was never in a position to purchase the house and would have been paying rent the rest of her life - she will never be without a home for as long as she lives and I’d appreciate if you kept your moral opinions out of the situation.

    The question I asked was, can we transfer the equity in the house before the 5 year discount limit seen as it’s not a sale and I’m already joint owner.

    If anyone could give me a steer on the question I’d be really grateful for the help ����
    Originally posted by c00k1e316

    You keep saying that people are patronising you but again and again you show that you haven't thought this through properly


    Now you say that your mother has a house for life but she may not have because you are talking about getting a mortgage on the house.



    There are no benefits that will pay a mortgage if you become ill and are unable to work or if you become unemployed. You may get the interest on the mortgage paid for a short time but if you cannot pay the mortgage for a long time the bank or building society will repossess it. If the house is repossessed you and your mother will become homeless and neither of you will be rehoused by the council. Single people can claim housing benefit but only enough for one room in a shared house. So one room in a house with strangers.



    The problem I have with all of your plans is this. Your mother was a secure council tenant. She had a home rented from the council for the rest of her life. If she had needed retirment housing or sheltered housing the council would have provided it for her. As a home owner that is now not going to happen. If she needs sheltered housing she will have to buy it with the money from the half share of the house that she owns with you. The council will not provide her with any more council housing because she already owns a property with you. People who own properties are expected to make their own arrangements when it comes to sheltered housing and care homes.


    So here is the situation as it stands at the moment. Your mother is living with your gran. Unless she is on the deeds to gran's house she has no right to that accommodation or any money from that accommodation if your gran's house has to be sold to pay for care home fees. You want to remove your mother from the deeds to the house that she owns with you. So if you do that and then gran goes into a home and then you take out a mortgage and lose your job and can't pay the mortgage where does that leave your mother? It leaves her in one room in a shared house living with strangers and all of this so that you spend money on her house that you and she have been living in for 25 years without a problem.


    I am extremely worried about your mother's situation in all of this. No one seems to have planned for what would happen if you are unable to pay the mortgage. At the moment she doesn't have a problem because she owns half of a house. If you remove her from the deeds she is effectively homeless.
    Last edited by Cakeguts; 15-09-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 15th Sep 18, 11:32 AM
    • 4,880 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    csgohan4
    You keep saying that people are patronising you but again and again you show that you haven't thought this through properly
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    no prizes for guessing who got the better deal and it certainly wasn't the mum,

    I've referred people to Adult Safeguarding for less and this certainly is worrying for the OP's Mother. Your mother is probably in no shape to make decisions on a house when she is looking after her own ill mother.

    The fact is your grandmother is ill and all your worried about is how you can get your mother's share of the house is disgraceful in itself, you should be ashamed.

    Shouldn't you be supporting your mother rather than fleecing her of the only thing that ensures she has a secure house to come back to?
    Last edited by csgohan4; 15-09-2018 at 12:37 PM.
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 15th Sep 18, 11:37 AM
    • 2,750 Posts
    • 2,423 Thanks
    da_rule
    The general rule under the Housing Act is that a transfer is not a relevant disposal if it is exempted under section 160.

    Having had a quick scan, it appears that the transfer may be an exempted disposal, as, under sections 160(1)(a) & (2)(a), you would be classed as a qualifying person. The question then becomes whether the transfer would be a transfer of the whole property.

    If you own the property as joint tenants then it would be as it is a transfer of the whole to someone (you) who was one of the original purchasers.

    If you own it as tenants in common then it is more complex as it may not be classed as a transfer of the whole, rather a transfer of your mums share of the whole.

    Something else to consider is that the Council have a charge over the property. You mention that you didn't have a mortgage, therefore this charge will be the first charge. Most lenders will want their charge to be the first charge. The Council have to suspend their charge in certain circumstances to allow a lender to take priority. One of these circumstances is where the funds are to be used exclusively for improvements. Council's do however have policies for this and you may have to provide them with quotes etc as well as allow them to view the property before and after the works to ensure the funds were used correctly.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 15th Sep 18, 11:58 AM
    • 3,266 Posts
    • 8,789 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    My mother was never in a position to purchase the house and would have been paying rent the rest of her life
    Originally posted by c00k1e316
    Your mother had a secure home for the rest of her life.

    She doesn't anymore.

    No matter how good your intentions might be to house her if she ever needs it, you can't actually guarantee you'll be able to. Lots of things could happen to change your circumstances.

    You two buying her council house together has already disadvantaged her, do you really want to disadvantage her further by taking away the 50% she owns?
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 15th Sep 18, 1:17 PM
    • 4,856 Posts
    • 7,215 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    no prizes for guessing who got the better deal and it certainly wasn't the mum,

    I've referred people to Adult Safeguarding for less and this certainly is worrying for the OP's Mother. Your mother is probably in no shape to make decisions on a house when she is looking after her own ill mother.
    Originally posted by csgohan4

    There has been an Adult Safeguarding issue with this from the Right to Buy time.



    The mother has not gained anything from this Right to Buy. In effect she has lost something. She has lost part of her home. As a tenant she had the tenancy of the whole house.



    If her name is removed from the deeds she will lose her entire home. This is not in her best interests.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 15th Sep 18, 3:02 PM
    • 4,880 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    csgohan4
    There has been an Adult Safeguarding issue with this from the Right to Buy time.



    The mother has not gained anything from this Right to Buy. In effect she has lost something. She has lost part of her home. As a tenant she had the tenancy of the whole house.



    If her name is removed from the deeds she will lose her entire home. This is not in her best interests.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts

    The Op is a good example of everything wrong with RTB, you can't assume people will make reasonable decisions at the tax payers expense

    Also a good example of why money and family shouldn't mix, the fact the OP paid for the house with all her money, they feel entitiled to the house as a whole despite mother being 50% ownership,
    Last edited by csgohan4; 15-09-2018 at 5:07 PM.
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 15th Sep 18, 3:39 PM
    • 3,526 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    cjdavies
    You remove her, you end up in tragic accident (I hope not), but what happens to your Mum?
    • SnooksNJ
    • By SnooksNJ 15th Sep 18, 4:10 PM
    • 710 Posts
    • 1,238 Thanks
    SnooksNJ
    We her name removed from the deeds to allow me to mortgage the house to release the equity for redevelopment. The house, as with most ex council is in need of renovation.

    My mother and I together can only get a 10 year mortgage, however, I alone can get a 25 year.

    It may not be possible for another 3 years but if someone has been through similar I’d like some relevant advice

    Thanks
    Originally posted by c00k1e316
    what kind of redevelopment? Like knocking the house down and building condo's?
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 16th Sep 18, 12:27 PM
    • 4,856 Posts
    • 7,215 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    The Op is a good example of everything wrong with RTB, you can't assume people will make reasonable decisions at the tax payers expense

    Also a good example of why money and family shouldn't mix, the fact the OP paid for the house with all her money, they feel entitiled to the house as a whole despite mother being 50% ownership,
    Originally posted by csgohan4

    The OP has written "as the house is mine." Implication being that the house already belongs only to the OP and the mother's name on the deeds is only some sort of formality to do with the rules on Right to Buy not as an actual sign of ownership. The way I read this is that the OP wants the mother's name to be removed from the deeds of a house that the OP already owns because they paid for it. I don't think they understand that they gave half the value of the house to their mother for her to buy her half.



    It is quite clear from the OP that they think that their mother owns half of a house and that ownership has no value because the OP paid for the house. The bit about giving their mother the money to buy her half doesn't seem to have been understood.
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 16th Sep 18, 2:41 PM
    • 7,408 Posts
    • 6,175 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    'Look, I had a lovely supper, and I all I said to my wife was that that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'
    Don't harass a hippie. You'll get bad karma.

    Never trust a newbie with a rtb tale.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 16th Sep 18, 5:13 PM
    • 4,880 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    csgohan4
    'Look, I had a lovely supper, and I all I said to my wife was that that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'
    Originally posted by Norman Castle


    Sacrilege, you should be stoned by bearded women
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • Computer Beginner
    • By Computer Beginner 16th Sep 18, 6:39 PM
    • 179 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    Computer Beginner
    OP,

    Who owns the house your grandmother (and now your mother too) are living in?
    Is it rented?
    Does it have a mortgage on it?
    Is your gran widowed?

    If your gran owns the house in her name entirely, then the biggest issue coming up is likely to be care home fees for your gran.
    As your gran is already needing care in her home, the council will have a very close look at any 'deprivation of assets' relating to your gran's house.

    Beware any kind of companies setting up 'trusts' or even 'insurance bonds' etc.
    It's highly likely the council will ignore these 'shelters' and you will have paid a company for nothing.
    If you go to BBC iplayer and look at the 'Moneybox' episodes, they have covered this a few times.

    So what to do?
    Well, the best advice usually is to try and make sure that the house in question (where your gran lives) is not entirely owned by your gran. That means having someone else (eg your mum) put down as a joint owner (either tenant in common, or joint tenant - I can't recall which is best - look into that).

    That means that when the council look to sell the house, they will only assess the 'half' of the house that is owned by your gran. As someone else owns the other half, the 'market value' of the house is very low, because who would want to buy 'half' a house on the 'open market'?

    This is what typically happens when you have an elderly couple and one (eg the man) needs to go into a nursing home. The house doesn't have to be sold, because the man's wife's share is 'protected' by the rules. ie the council can't force the wife to sell 'her share' of the house.

    Now, in this situation, the council does not class the 'joint ownership' of the house as 'deprivation of assets' because that was likely the set up for many years prior so there is no INTENT to deprive an asset.

    In your situation, were your gran to 'gift' your mother 'half' her house, then the council COULD POSSIBLY view this as deprivation.

    If your gran doesn't need to go into a home and is ok with care delivered at home, then only your gran's savings will be taken into account. I believe the limit allowed is about £20k (check this - different in England, to Scotland etc).

    Now, regards the house you currently live in:
    How urgent are the repairs required?
    Could you just wait until the five year RTB limit is up and then just sell the house and move? Maybe closer to your gran's house? If your mother was assessed by the council in the future, this would probably look less suspicious than an 'equity transfer' ie your mother signing 'her' half of the house over to you, for 'nothing' (or her repaying you for buying her half of the house for her).
    But as you say, your mother is only 58, so you're PROBABLY ok to leave this alone for a few years (But you never know for certain, obviously).

    Were you to leave your mother on the 'deeds' as 'owning half' the house, then if she did need care home assessment in the future, you'd likely be looking at the situation I described of the elderly married couple - ie a pre-existing set-up, with no intent to deprive an asset. That could well be preferable to your mother 'giving away' 'her half' of the house, prior to needing care home.

    This is just my advice - I'm not an expert, but look into it closely. Ask Age UK, CAB etc.

    I don't really want to discuss the morality of the govt's rules on care home fees, RTB, tax, inheritance, inequality etc, etc.
    The rules are what they are and none of us can change them. Some people are born healthy and wealthy, others are born poor and sick. Everyone is entitled to their own view, but ultimately the govt decides. However, things do change.
    The key is to be honest, above board, seek sensible advice and plan ahead.
    Last edited by Computer Beginner; 16-09-2018 at 6:51 PM.
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