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    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 9th Sep 18, 6:28 PM
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    determinedtofight
    LBCC tactics Premier Park
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 18, 6:28 PM
    LBCC tactics Premier Park 9th Sep 18 at 6:28 PM
    Received an LBCC from Premier Park (Exeter) 5 months after their last threatening letter. following useless and shambolic appeal and POPLA process (more on that later)Now wanting 100 + 70. They don't seem to bring many cases - do they have a good success rate?
    First of all some tactical stuff: The letter is just signed with an illegible squiggle and Premier Park.
    Can I reject it based on Practice Direction 22 ss 1.1 and 3.4 and request that they send a compliant LBCC?
    1.1 Rule 22.1(1) sets out the documents which must be verified by a statement of truth. The documents include:
    (1) a statement of case, .......
    3.4 Where a document is to be verified on behalf of a company or other corporation, subject to paragraph 3.7 below, the statement of truth must be signed by a person holding a senior position in the company or corporation. That person must state the office or position held.
    Can I wait until just before their 30 day deadline? Do I have to indicate all the reasons for claiming there is no debt with this first rejection or can I wait until a compliant LBCC arrives and then take the maximum time under the new LBCC?
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Sep 18, 6:42 PM
    • 37,874 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 18, 6:42 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 18, 6:42 PM
    Everyone is politely asked to read up on this in the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread


    #2 covers the LBCCA and how to rebut it
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 10th Sep 18, 4:49 PM
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    determinedtofight
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 18, 4:49 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 18, 4:49 PM
    I have read the Newbies FAQ and can'tfind the answers there to my specific points and the FAQ does urge folk to set up a new thread urgently
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Sep 18, 5:41 PM
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    KeithP
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 18, 5:41 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 18, 5:41 PM
    Does a LBC even need a statement of truth?

    You cannot 'reject' a LBC.

    There are sample responses to an LBC in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread. Pick one and adjust it to your circumstances.
    .
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 10th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
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    Quentin
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
    I have read the Newbies FAQ and can'tfind the answers there to my specific points and the FAQ does urge folk to set up a new thread urgently
    Originally posted by determinedtofight
    That quote refers to starting a new thread urgently following s court claim!

    See the section in the FAQ on rebuttal of lbcca.
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 11th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
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    determinedtofight
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 18, 6:53 PM
    OK sorry for the misunderstanding - so I'll draft a reply to the LBC from the samples at #2 and post it here for review? Anyone have any experience of Premier Park court cases? What's their success rate - they seem to bring very few cases which suggests to me they only pick the ones they're confident of winning. They seem to me to be a bit more competent as an adversary than some of the incompetent outfits at the real cowboy end of the spectrum
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 15th Sep 18, 5:01 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    determinedtofight
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 5:01 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 18, 5:01 PM
    Here's my effort at a LBC response suitably amended from the Newbies template - I'll add at the end the text about failing to comply with DPA and SAR regarding ANPR(omitted here because of space, repetition etc)



    I have a number of concerns. I have not admitted I dispute the debt and I have not used the reply form ( as you have suggested). Is the 30 day time limit still ticking after I've sent this reply? Will the court claim I am being unreasonable because the Practice Direction expects "The reply should include confirmation as to whether the claim is accepted and, if it is not accepted, the reasons why, together with an explanation as to which facts and parts of the claim are disputed"
    Should I respond to their offer of ADR: again from the Practice Direction "A party’s silence in response to an invitation to participate or a refusal to participate in ADR might be considered unreasonable by the court and could lead to the court ordering that party to pay additional court costs." Can Premier Park rely on their statement in the LBC "we understand you to have sufficient documentation to fully understand the parking charge" i.e all the guff they issued as evidence to POPLA. Again the Practice Direction: "The court will consider whether all parties have complied in substance with the terms of the relevant pre-action protocol or this Practice Direction and is not likely to be concerned with minor or technical infringement.


    Apologies if this is going over old ground for you - legal action makes me very nervous as I've not been here before(every time I re-read the LBC I get more fearful) and I keep reading forum posts and getting more confused.


    MY PROPOSED REPLY TO PREMIER PARK




    You have now sent a Letter Before Claim.

    I require you to comply with your obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which you assert authority to bring the claim
    2. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    3. a copy of the ticket issued by the machine
    4. a copy of any contracts with on/off-site retailers which modify the terms of your contract with car park users
    5. evidence alerting car park users to a change of terms
    6. A plan showing illumination points and how they relate to signs, identifying which were functioning on the date of parking
    7.Please indicate how the additional 70 is a reasonable charge for debt recovery fees as indicated by section 23.1(b) of the BPA Code of Practice

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

    If you do not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on you and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16.

    Until you have complied with your obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it.



    Yours etc.
    Last edited by determinedtofight; 17-09-2018 at 8:05 PM.
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 17th Sep 18, 8:21 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    determinedtofight
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 18, 8:21 PM
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 18, 8:21 PM
    The facts of this case are:


    I've parked at this car park over a period of several months and when I read the notice then it said free after 6pm so that's the basis on which I paid

    Premier Park put up new notices with nothing to indicate the terms had changed so it seems reasonable not to check

    Sign on entry not on drivers side and not illuminated and nothing about ANPR cameras

    Ony a portion of the car park lit
    No light at pay station so it was impossible to check the new terms
    I'm checking the layout as I thinkI can demonstrate that on my route to my parking space and to the unlit ticket machine I would have passed no notices.

    To cap it all the restaurant I used has an agreement with Premire Park for free parking which I didn't take advantage of as I was still under the illusion that parking was free after 6pm(nothing on the signs to alert you to this)
    Premier Parl failed to respond to initial appeal within their promised deadline
    Foolishly I think I've admitted I was the driver at inital appeal and POPLA stage, admitting I overstayed and offering to pay for the lost parking revenue, but denying I had a contract. as I was not able to read the signs which were not complete anyway


    Do I put all this in teh relpy to the LBC as well as what I've already written? Or do I save this for my defence once I get a court notification?


    Please reply soon- anxiety levels rising!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Sep 18, 9:07 PM
    • 63,827 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 18, 9:07 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 18, 9:07 PM
    Anyone have any experience of Premier Park court cases? What's their success rate - they seem to bring very few cases which suggests to me they only pick the ones they're confident of winning. They seem to me to be a bit more competent as an adversary than some of the incompetent outfits at the real cowboy end of the spectrum
    I disagree with all of those assumptions; IMHO PP are as useless as all the rest, and have no real litigation record at all. They will be beatable.

    They even had a 'representative' here (Matt) posting with MSE authority, spouting daft stuff like ''I have seen appeals granted'' and when I asked him ''how may? two?'' he didn't reply and went away.

    You honestly think PP (ex-clampers) are not 'real cowboys'?

    http://www.staustell-voice.co.uk/news/0/article/3065/

    I know what I think. Beware through, that clearly PP read this forum.

    Will the court claim I am being unreasonable
    No.

    Can Premier Park rely on their statement in the LBC "we understand you to have sufficient documentation to fully understand the parking charge"
    Yes if you have it all, but do you? Why not enclose a SAR (separate sheet, addressed to their Data Protection Officer) with your reply to the LBC?

    Unless you have done this already, a SAR flushes out ALL the data held, all images and letters and file notes, case updates, and they have to supply it to you without cost.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784

    And no, it is not excessive or unreasonable for a victim of this ex-clamper, to send a SAR.

    What is excessive and unreasonable is the entire parking industry.

    Change this:

    7.Please indicate how the additional 70 is a reasonable charge for debt recovery fees as indicated by section 23.1(b) of the BPA Code of Practice
    ...by adding that you also require evidence that they actually expended 70 to a debt collection firm.

    As this was the case (below), how did you lose at POPLA, did they ignore the fact that the restrictions had changed and no extra signs were up/lit or readable?
    Premier Park put up new notices with nothing to indicate the terms had changed so it seems reasonable not to check

    Sign on entry not on drivers side and not illuminated and nothing about ANPR cameras

    Ony a portion of the car park lit
    No light at pay station so it was impossible to check the new terms
    That's against the BPA CoP on signage for new car park regimes.

    What happened when you complained to the restaurant and the owner/agent that runs the retail park?

    They - retailers and retail parks - can cancel these fake PCNs in seconds, and it is never too late. If you have not exhausted (and I mean completely exhausted, and made a pain of yourself) that complaint option, make a concerted effort THIS WEEK to get it cancelled.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 18th Sep 18, 8:11 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    determinedtofight
    Thanks for the reply and confidence boost!


    I just checked after getting the PCN that there is a sign in the restaurant and complained to the manager- he was sympathetic but that's all. I'll go tomorrow and see what I can do.


    POPLA ignored everything about change of terms.


    Lost POPLA appeal on:
    1. Signs conform to BPA code of practice blah blah
    2.New signs been in place for at least 4 months
    2. sufficient lighting based on photos taken on a summers night (not a winter night which is when I got done) and this really is taking the !!!! -" I am also satisfied that there is sufficient ambient light from the vehicles themselves entering the site"
    3.And this is just pure invention! "The appellant states that the ticket machine was not illuminated therefore, he could not read the terms and conditions, and as such could not enter into a contract with the operator. While I appreciate that the machine may not have been illuminated, the appellant did manage to purchase parking time of three hours. It is reasonable to assume therefore that if he was able to see the parking tariff for three hours, he would have been able to see the tariffs for longer stays, as these are located directly underneath each other" Perhaps I asked the person in front of me in the queue who had a mobile phone with a torchlight whereas I didn't
    4.Paying for parking formed a contract
    5.100 penalty Beavis blah blah
    6. Restaurant issue nothing to do with the contract
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 27th Sep 18, 10:02 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    determinedtofight
    I'm about to send off my response with the change you indicated and also an SAR. Just to be absolutuly clear - in this letter I don't have to dispute the debt or lay out the grounds of my dispute - I leave that for the actual defence if it comes to court action? No luck on getting the charge cancelled I'm afraid
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 27th Sep 18, 10:16 AM
    • 37,874 Posts
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    Quentin
    The rebuttal letter is you getting them to justify their claim, rather than you defending it.


    (Rebuttal letters are covered in #2 of the FAQ, together with some examples to adapt)


    Don't get high hopes it will stop the claim progressing!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 27th Sep 18, 11:24 AM
    • 10,519 Posts
    • 10,368 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.
    for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 27th Sep 18, 11:29 AM
    • 2,427 Posts
    • 4,041 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    your rebuttal to the LBC quotes the old Practice Direction so you are using an old precedent. Since October 2017 the new Protocol for Debt Claims applies - the obligations are essentially the same but you must replace the reference to paras 6a/c of the PD with the correct reference to the relevant para in the Protocol.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Sep 18, 12:51 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes, as advised already, and SARs are explained above too (and in other threads):

    enclose a SAR (separate sheet, addressed to their Data Protection Officer) with your reply to the LBC
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 27th Sep 18, 1:41 PM
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    determinedtofight
    Thanks for the advice. What refs do I need to replace para 6a an b with? Are they 13 14 and 15?
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 27th Sep 18, 1:45 PM
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    • 8 Thanks
    determinedtofight
    Thanks for the advice. I'm prepared to make them fight to the end to get their grubby hands on any more of my money. Any idea of what costs I might face if I lose?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Sep 18, 1:58 PM
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    • 76,475 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    How come everyone asks that and doesn't just search the forum?

    150 - 175 all told (including the PCN). Less than they are demanding now I expect, even if you lost, and NO RISK of a CCJ as long as you follow our advice throughout and don't miss any court deadlines (read each letter thoroughly).

    What refs do I need to replace para 6a an b with? Are they 13 14 and 15?
    I don't understand that question.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-09-2018 at 11:43 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 27th Sep 18, 2:24 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Cost of PCN (on NtK) Plus around 100 in court fees
    • determinedtofight
    • By determinedtofight 28th Sep 18, 9:04 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    determinedtofight
    Sorry for asking questions that I should know I could search for - I'll try to remember next time but this whole thing is just stressing me out.


    I'm trying to find an answer to the information in an earlier post here as to which paras of the PD I should be quoting.I t tells me I'm quoting old stuff but doesn'ttell me which ones I should be using.Reading the PD I think it's paras 13-15 but I'd prefer some guidance


    The time limit to reply to LBC is fast appraching

    "your rebuttal to the LBC quotes the old Practice Direction so you are using an old precedent. Since October 2017 the new Protocol for Debt Claims applies - the obligations are essentially the same but you must replace the reference to paras 6a/c of the PD with the correct reference to the relevant para in the Protocol"
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