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  • FIRST POST
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 2nd Sep 18, 11:08 AM
    • 9Posts
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    theduchess2018
    Britannia PCN for a full carpark - car was never parked!
    • #1
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:08 AM
    Britannia PCN for a full carpark - car was never parked! 2nd Sep 18 at 11:08 AM
    The driver spent nearly an hour queueing for a space in a multi-storey carpark that should have had a 'full' notice on it. Cars were bumper-bumper and stationary for most of the time - the driver made the mistake of going around twice. Now a PCN has been received for being in there, with photographic evidence.

    After leaving there, the driver found another space and paid by phone to park for 4 hours -there are phone records proving this and it seems it was another Britannia-owned space as it's a Bournemouth number but incident didn't occur in Bournemouth.



    Is the template in the NEWBIE thread appropriate in these circumstances, or would an explanation of what happened along with an image of the parking fee paid would be more suitable?

    Many thanks for any advice.
    Last edited by theduchess2018; 12-09-2018 at 6:06 AM.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Sep 18, 11:12 AM
    • 37,733 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:12 AM
    • #2
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:12 AM
    It is not a fine.

    Edit your post and the title (advanced edit) to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who are two different people.

    Do both. Send the template but add that there was a bumper to bumper queue and the driver never actually parked.


    If/when it is rejected then make a second stage appeal to PoPLA. This is where you The Keeper would show any evidence of queuing along with all the usual template appeal points.

    This is what judges say about looking for a parking space.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html

    Have you complained to the landowner?

    Please also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 02-09-2018 at 11:16 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 2nd Sep 18, 11:15 AM
    • 9,258 Posts
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    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:15 AM
    • #3
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:15 AM
    I spent nearly an hour queueing for a space in a multi-storey carpark that should have had a 'full' notice on it. We were bumper-bumper and stationary for most of the time - I made the mistake of going around twice. Now I have been sent a fine for being in there with photographic evidence.


    After leaving there, I found another space and paid by phone to park for 4 hours - I still have the phone records and I'm sure it was another Britannia-owned space as it's a Bournemouth number but I wasn't in Bournemouth.


    I have looked at the Newbie thread and seen the template but was wondering whether that is what I should send in these circumstances or whether I should explain what happened and send an image of the parking fee I did pay.


    Many thanks for any advice.
    Originally posted by theduchess2018
    You have been double dipped, the ANPR picked up your car
    exiting with no payment, despite you being in a traffic jam.
    Doubt you will be alone.

    Appeal to Britannia stating this fact and lets see what
    they say.
    Not having a notice saying CAR PARK FULL rather suggests
    that Britannia are on a money making excerise
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 2nd Sep 18, 11:38 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    theduchess2018
    • #4
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:38 AM
    • #4
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:38 AM
    Thank you both.


    Apologies for not being clear, but I should maybe have added that the car was a rental car. I've looked at the relevant section, but where the advice is not to admit to being the driver or keeper, on the online appeals form you have to tick one or the other, so I am the driver?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 2nd Sep 18, 11:49 AM
    • 3,346 Posts
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    Le_Kirk
    • #5
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:49 AM
    • #5
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:49 AM
    In the NEWBIE sticky at the foot of post #1 you will find this section: -

    * COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Sep 18, 11:52 AM
    • 20,226 Posts
    • 31,900 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:52 AM
    • #6
    • 2nd Sep 18, 11:52 AM
    on the online appeals form you have to tick one or the other, so xxxx the driver?
    You're the day-to-day keeper of the hire car on the days hired. The hire company are the registered keeper. No one should tick the 'driver' box.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 02-09-2018 at 1:34 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Sep 18, 1:30 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 2nd Sep 18, 1:30 PM
    • #7
    • 2nd Sep 18, 1:30 PM
    Yep, so clearly the 'keeper' box is correct, for a hirer.

    You should NOT be using the blue template appeal, you need to adapt Edna Basher's version for hirers. The one that talks about para 13/14 of the POFA.
    After leaving there, THE DRIVER found another space and paid by phone to park for 4 hours - WE still have the phone records and I'm sure it was another Britannia-owned space as it's a Bournemouth number but THE DRIVER wasn't in Bournemouth.
    The above evidence will win it at POPLA - but you never say ''I'' of course!!

    PLEASE EDIT YOUR POST TO MATCH MINE.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 11th Sep 18, 9:54 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    theduchess2018
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 18, 9:54 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 18, 9:54 PM
    Sorry but I can't work out how to edit - I have tried!

    On trying to appeal today using the online appeal page, a message came up 'unfortunately you are unable to appeal at this time.' Looking through all the documents from the rental company and BP, it seems the rental company first received the PCN on 9/8/18 (they've stamped it), but nothing came to this address until 24/08. The documents say appeals need to be logged 21 days after initial correspondence and they seem to be ignoring the fact that the 'middle-man' of the rental company had to be contacted first.


    My thoughts are to appeal in writing (post), sending copies of documents etc, but any further advice on how to proceed would be wonderful.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Sep 18, 9:59 PM
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    Quentin
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 18, 9:59 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 18, 9:59 PM
    To edit your posts you need to be on a laptop or PC.


    The edit button is then at the bottom of each of your posts
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 18, 10:00 PM
    • 63,839 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    You need to view the forum on a PC or laptop.

    People can't use the forum properly on a phone and have reported nor seeing the whacking great 'EDIT' button that appears under every post you make!

    Looking through all the documents from the rental company and BP, it seems the rental company first received the PCN on 9/8/18 (they've stamped it), but nothing came to this address until 24/08.
    Did Britannia send you your own Notice on 24/8/18, or do you mean you only ever saw the one addressed to the rental firm and they passed it to you on 24/8/18?

    If Britannia themselves sent you a NTK (meant to be a NTHirer but they never get it right!) then they HAD to allow you time to appeal that notice.

    We've seen reports here before of Britannia's appeals system closing early, and everyone reports them to Steve Clark of the BPA who keeps an eye on this forum and should be alerted to any pattern of abuse by a PPC, such as routinely having their appeals page not working, for whatever reason, when in fact a hirer IS within the appeal time:

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    Include in your email a link to this forum page, he will want to read it so make sure your editing is done first.

    And attach to the email, the letter you got, and a screenshot of the appeals page saying 'tough, go away, too late'.

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-09-2018 at 2:47 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Sep 18, 10:02 PM
    • 37,733 Posts
    • 84,739 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    This is what you are looking for.

    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 11th Sep 18, 10:08 PM
    • 9,080 Posts
    • 9,477 Thanks
    pogofish
    The Edit function is still adequately visible on a phone if you use the menu in the top right of your post.
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 11th Sep 18, 10:39 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    theduchess2018
    Thank you, I was looking in the wrong place for edit - apologies.


    The rental company sent a copy of the PCN and their invoice for processing it on the 28/8. On the phone the next day they advised that BP would send their copy imminently, which they did - it arrived either later that day or the following day.


    So, the driver knew nothing at all of this fine until the end of August, so the 21 days has not yet elapsed, surely?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Sep 18, 10:52 PM
    • 37,915 Posts
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    Quentin
    Your OP needs more editing to remove details of who was driving. Use the third party as in "the driver" did this....and "the keeper" did that....
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 18, 11:51 PM
    • 63,839 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    the driver knew nothing at all of this fine until the end of August, so the 21 days has not yet elapsed, surely?
    Yes. Why the question mark?

    I already said we agree, and exactly what to do about it.

    You are right, so complain to Steve Clark who WILL investigate. Tell him we've seen a pattern on this forum of more than one case of Britannia doing this, including at least one referred to him before in recent weeks.

    Ask what Britannia are doing about it, given it is a failure of data processing (''untimely and inaccurate'' under the GDPR, for starters, and a breach of the BPA CoP because the CoP says that a PPC must allow recipients of a Notice to appeal).

    Make sure you include a URL to this thread so he can read it after you've edited it...
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-09-2018 at 2:48 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 10th Nov 18, 1:10 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    theduchess2018
    Appeal has been rejected. The letter is so annoying - it is like they didn't couldn't read it! It was stated clearly that the car was never parked and the time spent in there was queueing. However, the rejection letter refers to 'leaving the car' (it was never left) and talks about (and includes photos of) signs stating it's a pay and display carpark. The existence of these was never in dispute; what is in dispute is that there were no signs stating that cameras were in operation, meaning that it was a risk entering if unsure of getting a space. The carpark should also have been displaying a 'full' sign.

    The appeal letter also stated that the driver found an alternative space to park in nearby shortly after leaving and included a screenshot of payment made by phone for that space. The rejection letter states: 'Please be aware from the evidence provided that a Paybyphone ticket for the location code XXXX was purchased. However the code for 'Full rip-off carpark' is XXXX, therefore you have not paid for this carpark.' This is infuriating as it's like they have totally ignored what was written and just responded to things they can counter. Why would someone park in one place and fail to pay, then go back and move the car to another place nearby and pay?? The other annoyance is it's almost certain they own both carparks, so will profit twice from this incident.

    Having looked on POPLA, it seems none of the options match what has happened, so any advice as to what to select would be most appreciated. Another worry is that there is no evidence of the queueing, but nothing can now be done about that...
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Nov 18, 1:50 PM
    • 20,226 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    What did Steve Clark have to say?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 10th Nov 18, 2:46 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    theduchess2018
    Steve was very helpful in terms of ensuring the Britannia stuck to the appeals window - I contacted him because they closed it early. However, he did not comment on the appeal itself.
    • theduchess2018
    • By theduchess2018 11th Nov 18, 11:38 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    theduchess2018
    I have been looking into this further and have a couple of more specific questions:


    1. The point about not admitting to being the driver. A point of evidence against this charge will be that parking was paid for nearby just after leaving the full carpark, and that will take the form of phone and bank records, thereby revealing the identity of the driver. Does that matter - is it more important to show that evidence? The rejection letter states that if the driver is not known they have the right to recover the full amount from the keeper, and they quote The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Section 4.


    2. How much of a problem is it that the driver has no evidence of the queue?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Nov 18, 11:49 AM
    • 37,915 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    The payment confirmation doesn't confirm the identity of the driver (just whoever paid)
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