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  • FIRST POST
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 29th Aug 18, 7:44 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Ffingera
    minster baywatch prking ticket - gladstones letter stage
    • #1
    • 29th Aug 18, 7:44 PM
    minster baywatch prking ticket - gladstones letter stage 29th Aug 18 at 7:44 PM
    Hello guys, pleasure to join this forum, I think i may need your help with a little case, that I think may be a bit different (I know i shouldnt write this), but I maye have F'ed up a bit on the way. I have been through the newbies site but still not sure what to do...

    So here we go, beggining of July i got a NTK or hire company from minster baywatch, stanrdard BS, £100 fine or £60 in 14 days blah blah blah, which I unfortunately ignored because of working away and being really busy with work.

    The whole story is some time beggining of may I went for a nice summer day trip, but suddenly had an asthma attack and had to pullover, unfortunately to their site (Cotswold) to take the inhaler. The letter states ive spent around 17 minutes on their parking. Honestly i did not see any signage about the ANPR there so I was quite surprised when I got the letter.



    Then beggining of august came a scary demand for payment of unpaid charge. Thats when i got really upset and sent them an email saying more or less that I do not accept these documents, and that the requested amount of money is a daylight robbery (
    Hello guys, pleasure to join this forum, I think i may need your help with a little case, that I think may be a bit different (I know i shouldnt write this), but I maye have F'ed up a bit on the way. I have been through the newbies site but still not sure what to do...

    So here we go, beggining of July i got a NTK or hire company from minster baywatch, stanrdard BS, £100 fine or £60 in 14 days blah blah blah, which I unfortunately ignored because of working away and being really busy with work.

    The whole story is some time beggining of may I went for a nice summer day trip, but suddenly had an asthma attack and had to pullover, unfortunately to their site (Cotswold) to take the inhaler. The letter states ive spent around 17 minutes on their parking. Honestly i did not see any signage about the ANPR there so I was quite surprised when I got the letter.

    Then beggining of august came a scary demand for payment of unpaid charge. Thats when i got really upset and sent them an email:

    Dear Sir or Madam, I apologize for the delay in contacting yourselves, but I work away from home and have very little time to sort things out.



    I have received a NTK document from yourselves, stating "Parking fee covering visit duration was not paid in full". And recently i have received a DEMAND FOR PAYMENT stating that I allegedly owe you the amount of £155.



    """ I do not accept any of these documents, nor the amount i allegedly
    owe you. In fact I personally think this is a daylight robbery. As you know
    from your system, I spent exactly 17 minutes and 43 seconds at the car park,
    and you want £155 for this? Seriously? This is a pure theft. I can only say that
    the main reason was that I had an Asthma attack and i had to take the inhaler,
    and that was the closest spot to stop safely to do it. Once i was alright again
    I left as soon as possible. I also have to mention that in my opinion the ANPR
    signage was not sufficient enough for me to acknowledge it, I found out about
    the whole case from your correspondence. So again, I do not accept this charge,
    and I am not going to pay it.


    As a goodwill gesture i agree to pay you £1 for each minute spent on site,
    which rounds it up to £18. If you do not accept this offer I am ready to ignore
    your correspondence and wait for further action, as I have spoken to my
    solicitor regarding this case. """
    Then I started reading this forum and realised that I possibly made a mistake by sending this, but I once paid 120 quid to a similar company (council parking) for a similar reason and it hurt a lot so this time I decided to say NO.

    They only replied with "the appeal deadline has passed and charge remains outstanding.

    So after reading this forum a bit more I waited for the letter from gladstones, which came today. This is the VERY FIRST letter before claim from the solicitors, standard BS, giving me 30 days to pay or reply.

    So what should I do next? Will any of the copy and paste forms apply for this situation? Any help will be gold, as I would eat the money before paying them! Thanks, and regards!
Page 1
    • B789
    • By B789 29th Aug 18, 8:16 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    B789
    • #2
    • 29th Aug 18, 8:16 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Aug 18, 8:16 PM
    I have been through the newbies site but still not sure what to do.
    Originally posted by Ffingera
    Are you sure you have actually read the Newbies thread, digested it and tried to comprehend it? It doesn’t appear to be the case because you appear to have screwed this one up a bit. However, it may be salvageable to some extent but I will leave it to the regulars with much more experience than I to explain fully what you need o do next.

    Suffice it to say, you need to re-read the newbies thread and look for the information on what to do when you get a ‘letter before action’ and digest that information and follow the procedure that includes LBCCA. Your defence is going to have to be based on how you were not under contract to the PPC due to signage and possibly grace period amongst other things. You have probably shot yourself in the foot regarding POFA by your panicked reply to their demand letter by admitting you were the driver.

    ...I am ready to ignore your correspondence and wait for further action, as I have spoken to my solicitor regarding this case.
    Originally posted by Ffingera
    It also doesn’t help by bluffing as in the above paragraph in your letter. I doubt your “solicitor” advised you to write that letter in the first place.

    At this stage you need to take on the chin the admonishments you are likely to receive for your initial screw up. However, you will receive advice from some of the regulars on here and you should follow that advice carefully. You MUST re-read the Newbies thread and digest that information. Any advice you receive on here will refer you back to that thread quite a few times.

    You should also use the search function as there are many cases like yours where the driver or the keeper have initially screwed up but managed to get their case dropped or even won it in the small claims court. They did have to do a lot of work to recover and they followed the advice carefully after reading and UNDERSTANDING the newbies thread.
    Last edited by B789; 29-08-2018 at 8:20 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Aug 18, 8:23 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 29th Aug 18, 8:23 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Aug 18, 8:23 PM
    So here we go, beggining of July i got a NTK or hire company from minster baywatch, stanrdard BS, £100 fine or £60 in 14 days blah blah blah, which I unfortunately ignored because of working away and being really busy with work.
    Oh dear, hire/lease car PCNs from BPA members are always 100% winnable at POPLA if you had merely appealed as hirer/lessee, and not said who was driving. You couldn't have lost.

    Send a reply to Gladstones based on this one I wrote to BW Legal this week (obviously the detail of the disability - asthma is a 'protected characteristic' under the EA) needs editing by you, and a few other details such as removing stuff about a 'predatory ticketer' hiding, but in essence you can use most of this, I am sure you can adapt it easily:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74715383#post74715383

    HTH
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 19th Mar 19, 8:17 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ffingera
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 19, 8:17 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 19, 8:17 PM
    Okay Hi again guys, some time later I am at the court claim stage now, acknowledged the thing, halfway through the 28 days, and after some research and thinking i have put together something like this for the defence. Any chance this makes any sense and is useful in the case? Thanks and best regards!


    DEFENCE

    1. I am JOE BLOGGS, the Defendant in this matter.

    2. The Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. The Claim relates to an alleged debt arising from the driver's alleged breach of contract, which is denied. It is further denied that there was any agreement to pay the Claimant a punitive £100 'parking charge notice' (PCN) for the lawful conduct described below, along with additional costs listed below:

    -£60 Contractual costs
    -£50 Legal representatives costs
    -£25 Court fee

    3. The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant for all of the following reasons, any one of which is fatal to the Claimant’s case:

    I. The Defendant was forced to stop the car in a medical emergency situation due to a severe asthma attack which occurred to him while driving the car. A proof of the fact that the Defendant suffers from this disease is attached to this correspondence.

    II. The closest safe spot to stop the car at the time was the Cotswold Riverside Park Car Park.


    III. The Defendant left the car park immediately as soon as he felt OK enough to drive, with intention to get back home as soon as possible to take the medication required and avoid further attacks.

    IV. According to The Claimant’s supplied documentation the time spent on site was exactly 17 minutes and 43 seconds. The BPA Code of Conduct points 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 state that the Grace period in addition to the parking event must be a minimum of 10 minutes, and the Grace period to leave at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes, giving a minimum of 20 minutes of total grace period allowed, which is more than the time spent on site. Even in case of alleged contract agreement, this does not authorize the Claimant to take enforcement action.

    V. The Claim Form issued on the XX February 20XX by MINSTER BAYWATCH LTD was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person. The claim does not have a valid signature and is not a statement of truth. It states that it has been issued by MINSTER BAYWATCH LTD but has been signed by the Claimants Legal Representative. Practice Direction 22 requires that a statement of case on behalf of a company must be signed by a person holding a senior position and state the position. If the party is legally represented, the legal representative may sign the statement of truth but in his own name and not that of his firm or employer.

    VI. According to The Claimant’s supplied documentation the time spent on site was exactly 17 minutes and 43 seconds, therefore as a good will gesture The Defendant has offered The Claimant an amount of £1 per each minute spent on site, rounding up to a sum of £18 which was rejected by the Claimant.
    VII. The Claimant manages the car park. The Claimant is not therefore the Land-owner. Neither has it claimed to be an Agent. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that it is merely a contractor. The Claimant has not therefore explained what authority it has to bring the claim. The proper claimant is the landowner.

    VIII. The Claimant has not provided evidence, photographic or otherwise proving that the vehicle was indeed parked unattended, or where within the site, and/or whether the car stopped adjacent to, or in close proximity to which signage terms.



    "I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true."

    With a signature and date below
    Last edited by Ffingera; 19-03-2019 at 9:18 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Mar 19, 8:19 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,325 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 19, 8:19 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 19, 8:19 PM
    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    .
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 19th Mar 19, 9:12 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ffingera
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:12 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:12 PM
    yes thats where it is from. The issue date is 25 FEB 2019. Why?
    Last edited by Ffingera; 19-03-2019 at 9:17 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 19th Mar 19, 9:24 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,325 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:24 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:24 PM
    yes thats where it is from. The issue date is 25 FEB 2019. Why?
    Originally posted by Ffingera
    I am going to assume you did the Acknowledgement of Service before Monday 18th March. Please confirm.


    With a Claim Issue Date of 25th February, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 1st April 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's nearly two weeks away. Loads of time to produce a Defence, and it's good to see that you are not leaving it to the very last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive a copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to put you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 19, 9:34 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:34 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 19, 9:34 PM
    VI. According to The Claimant’s supplied documentation the time spent on site was exactly 17 minutes and 43 seconds, therefore as a good will gesture The Defendant has offered The Claimant an amount of £1 per each minute spent on site, rounding up to a sum of £18 which was rejected by the Claimant.
    You can't include the above, as negotiations like that were made on a Without Prejudice basis between you and the Claimant, and can't be mentioned in court documents as leverage.

    The words ''felt OK'' don't look right in a defence, as they are slang for 'recovered from the medical emergency'.

    You haven't mentioned the Equality Act that I pointed you to mention six months ago.

    You haven't mentioned no landowner authority.

    You have not criticised the signs.

    You have not debunked the adding of fake 'costs'.

    You haven't based your defence on the usual concise examples in the NEWBIES thread, e.g. the ones by bargepole there in the sticky thread.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 24th Mar 19, 6:12 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ffingera
    • #9
    • 24th Mar 19, 6:12 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Mar 19, 6:12 PM
    Ok, thanks for your valuable points guys, here is the hopefully final version:

    1. The Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. The Claim relates to an alleged debt arising from the driver's alleged breach of contract, which is denied. It is further denied that there was any agreement to pay the Claimant a punitive £100 'parking charge notice' (PCN) for the lawful conduct described below, along with additional costs listed below:

    -£60 Contractual costs
    -£50 Legal representatives costs
    -£25 Court fee

    3. The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant for all of the following reasons, any one of which is fatal to the Claimant’s case:

    I. The Defendant was forced to stop the car in a medical emergency situation due to a severe asthma attack which occurred to him while driving the car. A proof of the fact that the Defendant suffers from this disease is attached to this correspondence.

    II. The closest safe spot to stop the car at the time was the Cotswold Riverside Park Car Park.

    III. The Defendant left the car park immediately as soon as he recovered from the medical emergency, with intention to get back home as soon as possible to take the medication required and avoid further attacks.

    IV. According to The Claimant’s supplied documentation the time spent on site was exactly 17 minutes and 43 seconds. The BPA Code of Practice points 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 state that the Grace period in addition to the parking event must be a minimum of 10 minutes, and the Grace period to leave at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes, giving a minimum of 20 minutes of total grace period allowed, which is more than the time spent on site. Even in case of alleged contract agreement, this does not authorize the Claimant to take enforcement action.

    V. The Claim Form issued on the X February 20XX by MINSTER BAYWATCH LTD was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person. The claim does not have a valid signature and is not a statement of truth. It states that it has been issued by MINSTER BAYWATCH LTD but has been signed by the Claimants Legal Representative. Practice Direction 22 requires that a statement of case on behalf of a company must be signed by a person holding a senior position and state the position. If the party is legally represented, the legal
    VI. Representative may sign the statement of truth but in his own name and not that of his firm or employer.

    VII. The Claimant has not provided any justification of the claimed amount of £160, therefore is not Compliant with BPA Code of practice, as paragraph 19.5 states that any amount more than £160 requires the ability to justify it in advance.

    VIII. Additionally, The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    IX. The Claimant manages the car park. The Claimant is not therefore the Land-owner. Neither has it claimed to be an Agent. The Defendant has the reasonable belief that it is merely a contractor. The Claimant has not therefore explained what authority it has to bring the claim. The proper claimant is the landowner.

    X. The Claimant has not provided evidence, photographic or otherwise proving that the vehicle was indeed parked unattended, or where within the site, and/or whether the car stopped adjacent to, or in close proximity to which signage terms.

    XI. The Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paragraphs 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.

    XII. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.


    XIII. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the claimant's signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. They merely state that vehicles must be parked correctly within their allocated parking bay, giving no definition of the term 'correctly parked', nor indicating which bays are allocated to whom.

    XIV. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. Especially for a foreigner, who the Defendant is. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.


    XV. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    XVI. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    “I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true.”

    With a signature and date below
    Coupon-mad, I couldn't figure out how to use the Equality Act in this case, could you please provide some hints?



    KeithP, is is not better to send it through post as registered mail? Or it doesn't make a difference?



    Thank you guys and best regards!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 24th Mar 19, 6:17 PM
    • 14,345 Posts
    • 16,325 Thanks
    KeithP
    KeithP, is is not better to send it through post as registered mail? Or it doesn't make a difference?
    Originally posted by Ffingera
    I've made my suggestion.

    In my opinion, it is not better to send it by registered post - whatever that is.

    Email is instant.

    Emails are far less likely to get lost - either in the the carrier's system or inside the recipient's premises.

    Why do you want to do something different?

    Anyway, clearly the choice is yours.
    .
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 24th Mar 19, 6:42 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ffingera
    I am just an old fashioned guy... I will use e-mail, thanks again!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Mar 19, 7:15 PM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,666 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I am just an old fashioned guy...
    Originally posted by Ffingera
    Obviously from the Roman era, looking at your numbering sequence in defence point #3 - having not entered any defence point #2! Where’s that gone? Doesn’t stack.

    Bargepole recommends that every paragraph has its own sequential number, no sub-paragraph enumeration.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ffingera
    • By Ffingera 15th Apr 19, 6:47 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ffingera
    Hello again, so after correcting and sending the defense, here came the directions questionnaire from Gladstones. I was hoping they'd give up but nope.



    It came along with a letter saying they want the case to be dealt with on paper (which I will reject as said in newbies thread), and along with a 'request for a special direction pursuant to PD27 (2.4)' which I am not sure what to do with. So my question is, whats this about? And also, I have only received their form, shall I wait for mine from the court, or shall I download it and fill/send?



    Any help will be appreciated. Thanks!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Apr 19, 6:55 PM
    • 22,245 Posts
    • 28,131 Thanks
    Redx
    wait for the court one , fill it in and email it same as before , plus send a copy to the claimant

    alternatively, download , fill in , send to both, your choice

    follow the BARGEPOLE instructions on this part of the process
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 16th Apr 19, 9:17 AM
    • 4,621 Posts
    • 3,998 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Asking Auntie Google produced this: -
    2.4 A party may ask the court to give particular directions about the conduct of the case.
    Does it not specify what the particular directions are?
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