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    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 28th Aug 18, 3:20 PM
    • 44Posts
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    MercurialNo.10
    Small Claims Court Letter - N.Ireland.
    • #1
    • 28th Aug 18, 3:20 PM
    Small Claims Court Letter - N.Ireland. 28th Aug 18 at 3:20 PM
    I am aware of the onus on proof of driver in Northern Ireland, but would love a little help with what to do from here...although the PCN in Northern Ireland is covered in the forum (Have read quite a bit...long time reader, first time poster!) I've posted this as it does seem a little unique. Should there be a different method with regard to multiple PCN's etc.?

    I have never got in contact with the parking company and have kept all letters, but none of the windscreen PCN's.

    I need to submit my response to the claim soon (edited for vagueness)...thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read and respond/offer any advice.

    Cheers again,

    M10.
    Last edited by MercurialNo.10; 27-09-2018 at 3:38 PM.
Page 5
    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 12th Oct 18, 12:02 AM
    • 44 Posts
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    MercurialNo.10
    I did try and find out who moved the car there, but do you know what? No one wanted to take responsibility for a 90 'charge', plus it's to be believed that the driver(s) who moved the car there had previously been given permission to park there freely by the site's main Enforcement Officer, which can be evidenced through (at least 2) WS's.

    I believe that this particular charge could well be argued as excessive given the site in question, which is basically a large gravel patch of wasteground, with no entrance barrier and no marked bays that is rarely full/busy during the periods of the alleged 'contraventions'.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Oct 18, 10:11 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    That doenst actually say you were not eh the driver

    What you could do is in your defence include a list of all common drivers that MAY have been involved - so if 10 people have access to the vehcile then name ten people. You would need to explain how they have access, why you would not necessairly know who was using it at th time, etc.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Oct 18, 3:16 PM
    • 37,562 Posts
    • 84,493 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Notice to Keeper
    https://docdro.id/cheqg9Y

    Final Reminder
    https://docdro.id/ADF6Uyr

    Has anyone noticed what I have?
    Originally posted by MercurialNo.10

    If I have read it correctly, the NTK says the discount period has now ended, and that you (the keeper) have only 14 days to appeal.

    The keeper must be offered a discount, and given 28 days to appeal according to the BPA's CoP.
    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA should be made about both breaches, even though they may have corrected this in the reminder.

    Definitely complain to your MP and refer them to the comments from post 1 of the NEWBIES where our MPs have called the PPCs cowboys and scammers in open parliament.

    As mentioned earlier, do you have anything to prove that you were elsewhere at the time of the alleged event? Receipts, credit card/bank statements, work login/sign in, time and date stamped photos, witness statements etcetera. Some smartphones hold location data as well.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 12-10-2018 at 3:19 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 13th Oct 18, 6:43 AM
    • 44 Posts
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    MercurialNo.10
    Do you think I should ask for their evidence to help me identify the driver for them?

    I mean if they know who was driving and can evidence that fact, I can help them identify who was responsible and save them wasting the court's time.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Oct 18, 9:40 AM
    • 37,562 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    I thought they had said they believe that to be you, despite what you have told them.

    It will make things easier if you can prove you were elsewhere at the material time.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 13th Oct 18, 10:01 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    MercurialNo.10
    They believe it to be me, if no one is willing to identify themselves as the driver and it's the driver that is liable, then surely they should be able to produce evidence of who was driving to help me identify the party?

    Would love to be able to PM anyone some more relevant details, my employer has some access rights apparently and multiple staff members (including those I believe moved the car) have witnessed parking being freely available as normal behaviour (Permitted by the Enforcement Officer) over the course of years (can back this up with WS's).
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Oct 18, 12:26 PM
    • 37,562 Posts
    • 84,493 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Most people here don't accept PMs otherwise we would be getting about a hundred a day if not more.

    The scammers "should" prove their case against The Driver, and should identify them. However they only have to "prove" this to a court on a 50.01% probability.

    A witness statement from you saying it wasn't you, makes it harder for them to do that, but over here that comes down to playing judge bingo. Some will say, he says she says, and without proof from the scammers they will find for the defendant.
    Others will say, this company must have good reason to believe you were driving and since they are an honest upstanding pillar of the community acting for the best interests of the landowner, and you have not provided any proof that you weren't driving, they may find for the claimant.

    Proving it could not have been you makes it impossible for them to make their case, hence my questions about you being able to prove it wasn't you, and therefore there is no case since only the driver can be held liable in NI.

    It's a question of whether you can make this easy for yourself by proving it wasn't you, even though you don't (shouldn't) have to.


    If you can prove beyond doubt you weren't driving, then the claim is unreasonable and you could claim costs as well as helping with a landmark case.


    If you can't prove it, then of course your defence should concentrate on the fact that the claimant can't prove it was you, and you have made a statement of truth to a court that it wasn't you.

    In my opinion, if you can prove your case then you should, no rely on the claimant failing to prove yours.

    So, receipts, witness statements, sign in/login in at work, witness statements from people who saw you that day at that time, or timed and dated photos will all help you with this.

    Remember, you are not dealing with reasonable people and they will try to make you look unreasonable for "refusing" to say who was driving, even though there is no requirement to do so.

    Yes you can ask them for details/images of The Driver so you can help them to identify the person who moved your car, but all they have to do is say, can't cos of data protection, then you are stuck. In any case, I wouldn't want to drop one of my mates or family in the doo doo by naming them.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 13-10-2018 at 12:29 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 17th Oct 18, 10:26 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    MercurialNo.10
    Also noticed that some of the NtK's are 80+ Days...so if they are following BPA guidelines they are doing so selectively it would appear.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Oct 18, 10:31 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    BPA allows them up to 6 months, as thats the limit for KADOE access.
    • MercurialNo.10
    • By MercurialNo.10 17th Oct 18, 10:48 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    MercurialNo.10
    KADOE only seems to mention driver when mentioning Northern Ireland or am I misinterpreting?


    B2. Purpose For Which Data Is Provided

    B2.1. The DVLA shall provide each requested item of Data to the Customer
    via the KADOE Service for the Reasonable Cause of enabling the
    Customer to:
    a) seek recovery of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the
    Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice, and using the
    procedure in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012
    (where the vehicle was parked on private land in England or Wales on
    a particular date); and
    b) otherwise seek recovery from a driver of unpaid Parking Charges in
    accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice
    (where the vehicle was parked on private land in Scotland or Northern
    Ireland by that driver on a particular date, or where the Customer has
    chosen not to pursue, or is not in a position to pursue the vehicle
    keeper by utilising conditions in Schedule 4 of the Protection of
    Freedoms Act 2012).
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Oct 18, 11:10 AM
    • 19,721 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    where the vehicle was parked on private land in Scotland or Northern Ireland by that driver on a particular date,
    ...... by asking/inviting the RK (the only link the DVLA has with the vehicle) to tell them (the PPC) who the driver was and what his/her address for service (of a Notice to Driver) is.

    Was always the case in E/W too ....... until PoFA 2012 came along!
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Oct 18, 12:11 PM
    • 3,677 Posts
    • 4,505 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yep, tjhey can only ask who the driver is in NI.
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