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  • FIRST POST
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 26th Aug 18, 8:26 PM
    • 44Posts
    • 28Thanks
    frankiesays
    Double-Dipping - County Court Claim Form
    • #1
    • 26th Aug 18, 8:26 PM
    Double-Dipping - County Court Claim Form 26th Aug 18 at 8:26 PM
    I have been having an issue with HX Car Park Management regarding a claim they are making suggesting I was parked in a car park (private land) which they manage when in fact I visited the car park twice in that 79 minutes, once to pick up a friend and once again to drop them off. I don't see any examples of this on here. The signage clearly states that you have to be in the car park for ten minutes before the terms apply and I was only there for 1 to 2 mins each time but this is simply my word against theirs. As I have now received a claim form with a few days left to defend, are there any defences I can refer to before I make my witness statement?
Page 4
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 10th Jan 19, 9:50 PM
    • 4,563 Posts
    • 6,505 Thanks
    Half_way
    Is there a counter claim in play here?

    Double dips are perhaps on of the worst elements of PPC behavior , I would be tempted to claim against both the PPC and its principal
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 12th Jan 19, 11:34 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    Is there a counter claim in play here?

    Double dips are perhaps on of the worst elements of PPC behavior , I would be tempted to claim against both the PPC and its principal
    Originally posted by Half_way
    I am very tempted to put in a counter claim but tbh I've just had enough now, this has been going on now for around 11 months and I'm not even the defendant, it's my son. I just want the whole thing out of the way now.

    Over the 11 months I've had lots of good advice but also seen posts advising that some of these recommendations no longer work. One thing I was going to do as my initial shot over the bows on the day was to ascertain the Gladstone's representative's qualifications to represent them. Can I still get the case thrown out if this representative is not a full time employee of Gladstones?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jan 19, 11:50 AM
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    Umkomaas
    Can I still get the case thrown out if this representative is not a full time employee of Gladstones?
    Nope. You might get the rep (metaphorically) 'thrown out' (Rights of Audience - but you need to know what you're doing before throwing this at the Judge), but the case will go the full course.

    If a rep is determined by the court not to have RoA (a rare bird), someone will need to put the claimant's case. That is often the Judge! I think I'd rather a bungling, unprepared, badly briefed rep than a sharp Judge, but it's Russian Roulette what kind of Judge you actually get.

    Even if you fully understand and can articulate RoA, we've seen Judges getting pretty peed off and irritated with its introduction - not the best of starts in my view!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 12th Jan 19, 11:50 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    HX don't appear to be a company that are in a position to be paying out money to chase pointless claims.. I had pasted in a link to their 2017 accounts but it doesn't appear to work, however, they are available to see on the Company House web site.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jan 19, 11:52 AM
    • 22,529 Posts
    • 35,453 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    That's some link fella! Needless to say, it don't work!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 12th Jan 19, 1:29 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    It was recommended that I ask HX Parking for a copy of their Notice of Assignment quoting CPR 31.14. I did this back in August and my request was ignored. Is this still of use to me in any way?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 12th Jan 19, 1:36 PM
    • 4,563 Posts
    • 6,505 Thanks
    Half_way
    I am very tempted to put in a counter claim but tbh I've just had enough now, this has been going on now for around 11 months and I'm not even the defendant, it's my son. I just want the whole thing out of the way now.

    Over the 11 months I've had lots of good advice but also seen posts advising that some of these recommendations no longer work. One thing I was going to do as my initial shot over the bows on the day was to ascertain the Gladstone's representative's qualifications to represent them. Can I still get the case thrown out if this representative is not a full time employee of Gladstones?
    Originally posted by frankiesays

    I Can see why you would want this out of the way, howevver a counterclaim would/should give you some recompense for all the agro.
    ANPR systems are not fit for the purposes that PPCs use them for
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Jan 19, 1:54 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    I too would urge you to counter claim, you are in a position to give them a good kicking, and , if you submit a cc they cannot duck out. They know full well that ANPR is far from 100% and in going this far they are trying to scare/bully you.

    Are you aware of the goings on in the HOC?

    https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2018/november/commons-private-members-bills-23-november-2018/
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 12th Jan 19, 2:31 PM
    • 4,563 Posts
    • 6,505 Thanks
    Half_way
    As above, I would also look at a joint claim against the parking company and its principal (the car park owner)
    Adding the principal will mean that they won't be able to shy away from their responsibilities, and if the PPC doesn't play ball then or will fall to the landowner.

    A counter claim will also stop the ppc bailing out at the last minute, after portion you through a huge amount of stress, harassment worry etc.
    It also won't add much more to your current workload in dealing with this.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 12th Jan 19, 3:27 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    I seem to recall that I was asked if I intended to make a counter claim in one of the documents I had to fill in a few months back if my memory serves me correctly, if so I said no at the time.

    With only six days left to put in my final piece before the case comes to court would there be time for this?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jan 19, 3:38 PM
    • 22,529 Posts
    • 35,453 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    A Counterclaim has to be submitted with the defence - and paid for in advance.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 13th Jan 19, 6:15 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    Just double checking here... I'm assuming I have to post nothing, this can all be via email? My witness statement and accompanying evidential documents in PDF format to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk and a seperate copy to Gladstones at their generic email address?
    Having asked that, I don't have an email address for Gladstones and their web site doesn't show one either so I guess they are trying to make everybody post their WS's just to make things more onorous.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 19, 6:16 PM
    • 21,881 Posts
    • 27,486 Thanks
    Redx
    your WS and evidence DO NOT GO to the CCBC, so you havent studied the paperwork you got from your local court (if its got that far yet ?)

    read the BARGEPOLE walkthrough so you know what happens and when
    Last edited by Redx; 13-01-2019 at 6:26 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 13th Jan 19, 11:59 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    your WS and evidence DO NOT GO to the CCBC, so you havent studied the paperwork you got from your local court (if its got that far yet ?)

    Yes I have and it says all documents must be "delivered to the court office" but no mention of email so I'm guessing that they need to be posted but I'll call them tomorrow and see if they can answer my question.

    read the BARGEPOLE walkthrough so you know what happens and when
    Originally posted by Redx
    I've read this several times and I don't believe it answers my question either.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jan 19, 12:06 AM
    • 21,881 Posts
    • 27,486 Thanks
    Redx
    it says court office, as in the court that you designated as your local county court for civil claims in your DQ,

    The CCBC is not a court, it tells you that on their website, the court in Northampton is a completely different postcode and address

    if you read what the CCBC does, it is the starter point for issuing bulk claims for MCOL , it sends out the paperwork , receives the replies, adds them to the system, sends out the DQ and then allocates the court required (no matter if its about a parking ticket or an unpaid plumber or a tenant in default of their rent)

    they cannot tell you which court to use until you direct them in the DQ reply

    the form that comes from that local county court and judge tells you what to file and by when, so their address etc is on the paperwork from your local county court, ie:- their local court office at YOUR local county court in YOUR case

    you said CCBC, I said no, because the CCBC never tell you what to file and by when after they have allocated the county court which was allocated to hear the case, they wash their hands of it instead and wont accept any WS or exhibits


    it actually says this


    IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

    Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325


    Once allocated to your local court, PLEASE DO NOT NOTE THE HEARING DATE AND FAIL TO ACTUALLY READ THE LETTER!

    You WILL be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence ('exhibits') and any Witness Statement (i.e. yours, as bargepole says in the above link!). At witness statement stage (usually NOT LATER THAN 14 DAYS BEFORE YOUR HEARING!) don't forget to file the evidence you will rely upon, which should at least include:
    so local county court , as BARGEPOLE says in 5) here


    5. The case file will then be transferred to your local County Court, and you will eventually receive a Notice of Allocation, giving you a date and time for the hearing. It will also specify a deadline for you to submit a Witness Statement, and any other documents you intend to rely on, usually 14 days before the hearing but sometimes earlier than that. Your Witness Statement can expand upon the points made in your original Defence, and must start with the following "I, Joe Bloggs, of 23 Acacia Avenue, Anytown, AN1 2BC, am the Defendant in this matter, and will say as follows". You should attach to your Witness Statement any evidence to support your assertions, eg photos of signage, etc. Optionally, you may also want to include a Skeleton Argument to flesh out the legal points, or you could include those as part of your Witness Statement.
    surely you have read that by now ?
    Last edited by Redx; 14-01-2019 at 12:37 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jan 19, 12:43 AM
    • 68,637 Posts
    • 80,898 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The case is at your local court so we recommend taking a folder in person to the court in advance to comply with the requirement to 'file' your WS and evidence - all numbered & with a contents page, and the CLAIM NUMBER AND COURT DATE on the front of the folder.

    Make it nice an easy for the Judge to follow, no emails, not even to the local court, as you would be expecting a court clerk to print it all out...and they may well have a papers printing ceiling and/or even if they do print it all out, they may well chuck it in a pile, or not pass it to the Judge, etc.

    Either way, think how you want to Judge to see your evidence. Nice and ordered, in your own file, in order, all numbered so the evidence can be seen to relate to the WS.

    The claimant can go swivel and have an emailed version of course!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 14th Jan 19, 8:14 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    The case is at your local court so we recommend taking a folder in person to the court in advance to comply with the requirement to 'file' your WS and evidence - all numbered & with a contents page, and the CLAIM NUMBER AND COURT DATE on the front of the folder.

    Make it nice an easy for the Judge to follow, no emails, not even to the local court, as you would be expecting a court clerk to print it all out...and they may well have a papers printing ceiling and/or even if they do print it all out, they may well chuck it in a pile, or not pass it to the Judge, etc.

    Either way, think how you want to Judge to see your evidence. Nice and ordered, in your own file, in order, all numbered so the evidence can be seen to relate to the WS.

    The claimant can go swivel and have an emailed version of course!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks Coupon Mad for answering my original question - no email to court, only by post or hand.

    I will do as you advise, my response has to be delivered by Friday 18th January so it was my intention to print it off tonight and get it in the post tomorrow as I won't have a chance to deliver by hand and don't want to rely on anybody to do this for me.
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 20th Jan 19, 12:23 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    HX witeness statement now received via Gladstones. It seems very generic and quotes extensively from Beavis, Alder v Moore (1961), Parking Eye v Somerfield (2011) and VCS v HM revenue & Customs (2013).

    Their defence is based entirely around their accusation that the vehicle in question was parked for 79 minutes without a valid ticket being purchased and the only reference to our double dipping claim is the following statement " My company have checked their records to locate the defendant's vehicle leaving and reentering the car park at the times alledged and have been unable to locate any such departure and arrival."

    As our defence includes a statement from the passenger saying she was taken to Bookers in the manner described in our defence, a statement from her boss saying that he send the passenger to bookers and she was taken by my son at the time stated and it seems now we may be able to get hold of a copy of the Bookers receipt from their comapny archive, that our defence is based on clear evidence whereas theirs is based on a lack of evidence.

    The case is being heard on Feb 1st.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 20th Jan 19, 12:29 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    They are calling you a liar.

    I have to ask who is a judge more like to belief, a fine upstanding citizen, such as your good-self, or a small time scammer and their roboclaiming low rent solicitor.

    I suspect that they will fold on the court steps. If they do be sure to ask the judge for "unreasonable behaviour" costs.
    Last edited by The Deep; 20-01-2019 at 12:32 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • frankiesays
    • By frankiesays 20th Jan 19, 1:23 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    frankiesays
    The contract between HX and the landowner with regard to HX chasing unpaid parking fees says the following:

    It is expressly agreed that The Company shall have the right to enter into a "Relevant Contract" with any person who parks any vehicle on the site to which this agreement relates. And The Company has the right to recover any such parking charges that may be due under any such contract and is to be considered as "the creditor" as defined in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    The Company shall retian any monies recoverd by them from any person in relation to parking charges under or pursuant to this agreement.

    The proprietor may request the quashing of a parking charge at any time. However this concession is to be used sparingly and this discretion is solely and always in the hands of The Company.

    Would this imply that the contract only allows them to "collect" up to the 100 stated in the "overstay" section of thier notices and not any damages or losses HX Parking say they have suffered? This would only affect us if we lose.
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