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  • FIRST POST
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 22nd Aug 18, 4:07 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 4Thanks
    thetrainman20
    Parking Charge Notice in Scotland, foolishly appealed before reading advice
    • #1
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:07 PM
    Parking Charge Notice in Scotland, foolishly appealed before reading advice 22nd Aug 18 at 4:07 PM
    Good afternoon all,


    I've been doing some reading through the forum this afternoon and haven't been able to find anything which fits my circumstances.


    I pulled into a (what I was unaware of at the time!) pay & display car park in Musselburgh, Scotland. I found out once I had pulled in that it was pay & display and by this time, the ANPR system had clocked my registration.


    I secured my car and applied the handbrake so that I could review the prices and terms & conditions of the car park. I took my time doing this as I'm one of those weirdos who likes to read terms and conditions before agreeing to something. I took approximately 10 minutes to do this and decided that I did not want to pay to leave my car in this (empty!) car park that was not well maintained and decided to leave. I prepared the vehicle to move, checked blind spots etc and moved off and exited the car park. The total time from entering the plot to exiting was exactly 12 minutes.


    A couple of weeks later, I received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement Ltd, demanding payment for my incursion into their land(!!!)



    Foolishly, I decided to appeal my parking charge notice BEFORE seeking online advice which I fear may have been to the detriment of my case. As you might expect, I recieved a clearly computer generated reply stating that my appeal was unsuccessful and that they have graciously extended the period in which I can pay the reduced rate.


    I'm seeking advice on where to go from here? I did not use the car park, I did not leave the car and left once I decided that it did not suit my needs.


    Sorry if this has gone on and on but I felt that including as much detail as I could in the first instance may speed things up.



    Any help is muchly appreciated.


    thetrainman20
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    In you appeal to CEL, did you tell them who was driving?

    If unsure, please post your appeal text here.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • 19,874 Posts
    • 25,173 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    firstly, you should be aware that when relating a story you should only refer to the DRIVER and the KEEPER

    what happened on the day happened to the DRIVER

    the postal notice and rejection came to the KEEPER

    did the KEEPER tell them who was driving ?

    does the KEEPER reside in Scotland or elsewhere ? (you never said)

    did CEL offer POPLA ? (you never said)

    the scenario described is covered by clause #13 of the BPA CoP and is called a GRACE PERIOD , typically this could be say 10 minutes


    its not "their land" , it is land monitored by CEL ANPR cameras, somebody else will be the landowner , so have you complained to said landowner ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 22nd Aug 18, 4:48 PM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,179 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:48 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 18, 4:48 PM
    AFAIK, Civil Enforcement have only ever done court once in Scotland.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/english-parking-charge-firm-cleared-of-fraud-by-scots-court-1-4000569

    You are not dealing with the most honest of parking companies - and that is a very low bar.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 22nd Aug 18, 6:13 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    thetrainman20
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 18, 6:13 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 18, 6:13 PM
    Thanks for your replies.

    Unfortunately, I think that I did say that I was driving the car. I didn't think it through as I was naturally up tight upon receiving the charge notice. All a leaning experience in any case.

    I do believe that the land owner is the restaurant next door so I may contact them and proceed from there.

    I did not get in touch with POPLA as, according to my research, they cannot operate in Scotland.

    Thanks again for the replies.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Aug 18, 6:14 PM
    • 19,874 Posts
    • 25,173 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 18, 6:14 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 18, 6:14 PM
    you didnt answer all my questions


    does the KEEPER reside in Scotland or elsewhere ? (you never said)

    did CEL offer POPLA ? (you never said)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 22nd Aug 18, 9:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    thetrainman20
    • #7
    • 22nd Aug 18, 9:19 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Aug 18, 9:19 PM
    Hi there,

    Sorry, I'm replying on my phone so couldn't remember all the questions off the top of my head.

    I am the keeper and I reside in Scotland. The alleged offence also took place in Scotland.

    CE did not offer POPLA when they advised me my appeal was unsuccessful.

    Thanks.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Aug 18, 9:23 PM
    • 19,874 Posts
    • 25,173 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 18, 9:23 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 18, 9:23 PM
    only a DRIVER is liable in Scotland so the big question is did you appeal as keeper or not

    ideally, you complain to the landowner and get them to cancel it , that is your BEST OPTION

    CEL have 5 years to take the driver to court , in your case the simple version of our MCOL scheme in E & W

    if the keeper appealed as KEEPER, then there is no POFA2012 in Scotland so no keeper liability , hence why I was being pedantic

    my point ? laws are different in Scotland on a number ot topics as you should know, so its important to know that when people ask where the keeper resides because you cannot assume that the law is the same throughout the UK, especially not since devolution

    clause #28 of the BPA CoP covers your stay on site, which says

    28.4 If a driver is parking with your permission, they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the contract with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
    Last edited by Redx; 23-08-2018 at 5:20 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 23rd Aug 18, 5:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    thetrainman20
    • #9
    • 23rd Aug 18, 5:19 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Aug 18, 5:19 PM
    Many thanks for all your help!


    I have written to the land owner and will reply here with any updates.


    Thanks again
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 24th Aug 18, 2:22 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    thetrainman20
    Hello again,


    Unfortunately the land owner states that they do not have the authority to over rule CE Ltd in this matter - something I find hard to believe but I've hit a brick wall with them in any case.


    They've provided an email address for CE Ltd for me to send more correspondence - specifcally in relation to BPA CoP 28.4.


    I just wanted to get a little advice to see if this is the best course of action to now take?


    Thanks again
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Aug 18, 2:34 PM
    • 20,226 Posts
    • 31,900 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Nothing more you can do. So just ignore everything that comes your way, other than the vanishingly unlikely issue of court papers (no need to lose any sleep, we've never seen a single ticket case taken further in Scotland).
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Aug 18, 11:09 PM
    • 63,839 Posts
    • 76,487 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ignore them, there was no appeal in Scotland and CEL have had their fingers burnt there before, being pursued for aggressive business practices AFAIK.

    Almost certainly, nothing will happen except tedious 'scary'(!) begging letters, but keep all the paperwork in case that changes in the 5 years a firm has to proceed with a claim in the Scottish court system.

    North of the border you're best not appealing a private PCN, so shhhh, next time. Most PPCs never try Scottish court procedures, and can be cancelled by landowner complaint, especially if it's a retail site.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-08-2018 at 11:13 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Mp2993
    • By Mp2993 13th Sep 18, 4:40 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mp2993
    Sorry to dig up an old post but I've just received a Notice to Keeper.
    (I live in Scotland & the car park is in Scotland)
    The "offence" occurred at the end of May and I received the NTK today (letter is dated 12.09.18)
    I have read the newbies faq, but found myself confused after reading the Scotland section.
    The private company is a member of the IPC. I haven't appealed as of yet. I am the keeper of car and the letter states that the car was in their car park (ANPR cctv used) for a total of 7 minutes and 11 seconds. Am I right in thinking that as the keeper I have no obligation to name the driver or pay the charge? Can I ignore this or do I have to respond?

    Many thanks.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Sep 18, 5:17 PM
    • 37,915 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    There's nothing confusing about ignoring everything except court correspondence!
    • waamo
    • By waamo 13th Sep 18, 5:38 PM
    • 4,684 Posts
    • 6,072 Thanks
    waamo
    Sorry to dig up an old post but I've just received a Notice to Keeper.
    (I live in Scotland & the car park is in Scotland)
    The "offence" occurred at the end of May and I received the NTK today (letter is dated 12.09.18)
    I have read the newbies faq, but found myself confused after reading the Scotland section.
    The private company is a member of the IPC. I haven't appealed as of yet. I am the keeper of car and the letter states that the car was in their car park (ANPR cctv used) for a total of 7 minutes and 11 seconds. Am I right in thinking that as the keeper I have no obligation to name the driver or pay the charge? Can I ignore this or do I have to respond?

    Many thanks.
    Originally posted by Mp2993
    Can you tell us what is confusing about the following so that it can be altered?

    Q - ''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''

    A - IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NI, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, BUT DO NOT APPEAL, UNLESS YOUR CAR IS A COMPANY/HIRE/LEASED VEHICLE, IN WHICH CASE, APPEAL AS HIRER/LESSEE (SEE * AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST).

    IN SCOTLAND/NI, CERTAINLY COMPLAIN TO THE RETAILERS, BUT IGNORE THE PARKING FIRM UNLESS YOU GET A CLAIM.

    IN SCOTLAND THIS IS EXCEEDINGLY RARE, AND DEFENDABLE BY A KEEPER, WHO CURRENTLY HAS A FAR MORE PROTECTED POSITION IN LAW THAN AN ADMITTED DRIVER.

    WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI, KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY, FOR 5 YEARS
    This space for hire.
    • Mp2993
    • By Mp2993 13th Sep 18, 6:10 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mp2993
    Apologies Quentin, it's my first ever PCN and wasn't sure on the laws surrounding them (also didn't see "ignore everything except court correspondence" in that section)

    Waamo, it's not confusing as such that I had confused myself by reading different sections and later realising that the laws in Scotland were different (baby brain is messing with my thought process) I think just a simple sentence as kindly pointed out by Quentin would be good.

    Thank you both, I shall be ignoring the PCN.
    • thetrainman20
    • By thetrainman20 10th Nov 18, 1:32 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    thetrainman20
    Good evening all, sorry to dig this one up again.

    I've received a letter from ZZPS Ltd, debt collection agency, demanding payment and threatening court action.

    Is the best course of action still to ignore these letters or should I be doing something about this?

    Many thanks in advance,


    C
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Nov 18, 1:47 AM
    • 10,600 Posts
    • 10,983 Thanks
    KeithP
    If you haven't done so already, now is the time for you to read post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    In summary - ignore debt collectors letters.
    .
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Nov 18, 8:19 AM
    • 9,258 Posts
    • 12,186 Thanks
    beamerguy

    I've received a letter from ZZPS Ltd, debt collection agency, demanding payment and threatening court action.
    Originally posted by thetrainman20
    ZZPS are just idiots. They are NOT empowered to threaten you with court action

    But do read up about their lies and rubbish .....
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74439905#post74439905

    Part 1: Liability for misleading and aggressive
    practices
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 10th Nov 18, 9:33 AM
    • 37,915 Posts
    • 22,023 Thanks
    Quentin
    Good evening all, sorry to dig this one up again.

    I've received a letter from ZZPS Ltd, debt collection agency, demanding payment and threatening court action.

    Is the best course of action still to ignore these letters or should I be doing something about this?

    Many thanks in advance,


    C
    Originally posted by thetrainman20

    All covered in #14 above


    No need to post about each debt collector letter you receive!
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